Hey everyone, Anthony Fantano here, internet's busiest music nerd. Hope you are doing well, and today it's time for another Starter Pack, a recommendation conversation.

I've been trying to get back into the swing of doing these a little bit more, and today I have on a guest who I have been dying to do a crossover with for a minute now, mostly because he is one of my favorite new content creators in the short-form space and music discourse, and music coverage broadly today, mostly because I love the fact that he is a guy who wears many hats. If I forget anything, please remind me and correct me, but he is not only a producer and DJ; he is a writer, he's a curator, he's a commentator, he does a bit of criticism as well, has his own opinions, performs, remixes, and I would say in a lot of respects he is a historian and an expert when it comes to all things electronic music. There's lots of stuff these days that he's turned me on to, and lots of information he has hit me to that I was not aware of because he's just a wealth of knowledge. Welcome, Mr. Ramon Pang. Hey, man, how you doing?

Ramon: Thank you very much, Anthony Fantano. On top of that, I will also add record label owner. I run a record label called Tabula Rasa Records. Boom. But yeah, thank you for the introduction. I'm very happy to be here. I've been a fan for a very long time. We were talking about this; I came strapped with my Aphex Twin bootleg shirt that's now official, and he's wearing this crazy warp thing I've never seen before.

Anthony: Yeah, we're both repping.

Ramon: I'm very excited to just jump into it. Yeah, do you want to start with your first recommendation?

Anthony: So yeah, I mean, for anybody who needs a little bit more context, we're going to be talking about IDM, Intelligent Dance Music. And basically picking three records each that we recommend in this genre, hopefully giving some context and parameters around what this style of music is and why exactly the records that we picked are kind of exemplary of the genre, and also just like really great entry-level projects to get into if you want to kind of get understanding for this sound. Before we kind of get into the first album, because this is like such a storied and sometimes like polarizing term, just like from the jump for you, like what makes for intelligent dance music and why was this a term that kind of bubbled up at the time that it did in the 90s, I believe, if not earlier?

Ramon: Yeah, so I like to start with the history back around, I believe the early 90s, 91, 92. There were a bunch of music nerds from America who were taking a lot of notes from this new style of ambient music and very experimental Acid House coming out of the UK. They wanted to make a mailing list that talked about artists like Aphex Twin and The Orb and things like that. So they created a mailing list called the “Intelligent Dance Music List”, I believe. And from the jump, the very first post is, “Are stupid people allowed to listen to this music?” The term is already up for contention.

Anthony: It's already pretentious, like from step one.

Ramon: Yeah. And the term intelligent in the mailing list comes from the first compilation, which was Warp Records' Artificial Intelligence series, which featured many, many amazing artists like The Orb, Autechre, Aphex Twin, Speedy J. And they would group these artists together because they were doing Acid House and Ambient House, but in a way that was more meant for heady home listening, like headphone music, like to kind of come down from the rave to and things.

And as these kind of nerds and techno kind of started to create more music and get together, the term started to expand to also include really crazy drum and bass, like Squarepusher was doing. And then as each seminal record kind of comes on, the palette for quote unquote IDM is expanded. And yeah, there's obviously crazy pretension around like the name because it implies intelligence, like that all dance music is stupid if it doesn't have crazy glitchy fills or like wank off synths or whatever. And I think that's so stupid. Like, I think the way I like to try to justify intelligence in my head is that it just tickles your brain in specific ways.

Like, to me, I can tell I'm hitting that headspace when I'm, like, hearing really soft melodic synths and pads, but at the same time, the drums are so frenetic and sharp, and it's making me listen to two different things at the same time, which is what I love about it. We'll get more into the parameters and stuff as we introduce and talk about these records as well, I'm sure. But that's my kind of introduction to it.

Anthony: Yeah. Like you were kind of saying in terms of like further defining it, it's really more kind of a reflection of a series of records and pieces that we heard coming out of a certain era, as opposed to like, this is a super rigid list of sort of sonic qualities this style of music has to have. It's like a really more like an umbrella term, which a lot of genres are some are, some aren't.

And I think kind of a personal defining characteristic for me for it is like, whether or not I'm hearing a piece that in my head, like makes a little bit more sense for like a headphone experience than something on the dance floor. I mean, there are plenty of pieces of IDM that you can experience in both contexts, and Lord knows a lot of the legends perform out live all the time. But still, it's really kind of like that personal cerebral kind of like almost solo listen where you really get to appreciate some of this stuff the most. So with that being said, let's get into some of these recommendations over here.

Okay. First one that we have on the screen right now is an Aphex Twin record, which you picked. A bit of a late-era project, not one of his earliest works. Go into this record and why exactly you picked this one over others in the catalog, and why you think this kind of like defines the style.

Ramon: Yeah. So this is Aphex Twin, Drukqs or Druk-qs. I've heard both. I think it's just the work made up. I chose this one because of the real range that you get here where, although Selected Ambient Works 85-92, his first album is at the top of every IDM list.

Anthony: It's like kind of the first order album that people bring up.

Ramon: Yeah. That's the first one because it's like the birth of IDM or ambient techno or so but I feel like we get here is, about ten years later, we get both the very ambient material and the extremely fast, frenetic, insane material.

We get the common theme of how the music can be so breakneck fast, but also the musicality that's happening underneath is very beautiful and slow.

Tracks like "Vordhosbn" and "Cock/Ver10" and "Meltphace 6" are like some of my favorites that, musically, if you strip out all the drums, they're just gorgeous. And you also got to keep in mind that like this album debuted, at like number one on the UK dance music charts and it stayed there for weeks if you really want perspective on like Apex Twin popularity at this time and if we're talking about IDM is like freedom of expression like one thing that I think is so characteristic of IDM is like once you remove the need to like please the dance floor with like these really obvious sounding kicks or like these melodies that are easy to follow once you kind of free yourself from that expectation you get a sense of Apex Twin's full personality on this record. Like even the track listing, like you have the most calming song on the record followed by the most insane like, breakneck song on this record. Nut it's also meant to like instill childlike wonder and like stir you up a lot.

But a lot of it's kind of like soul crushing and then another part of it is like very edgy and like crass at the same time, too. Like you hear this record and it's like, no wonder that you would get a record like Venetian Snares' Rossz Csillag Alatt Született, the 2005 Pigeon record. It's like the lineage is so clear to me and it's crazy that you can get like both sides on one record even if like most people people might not be in the mood to hear like to just be flown back and forth between crazy moods like that. It's one of my favorites from him. I think it has some of his best songs, and I think it's a great introduction to him if you already like insane progressive music

Anthony: Yeah, it's a record that you know really pushes the versatility element to full tilt you know, I mean the versatility, the diversity, the range of Richard's production chops is already like well displayed on the first two ambient works projects, but here he pushes it even further. Not just in terms of like those levels of intensity that you're talking about, but also a really huge marker of this record what makes it stand out in this catalog is just all the piano pieces. Like the way he sort of like works in live and acoustic piano passages into a lot of these tracks which was super different for him at the time as somebody who was like you know primarily known for working purely with synthetic aesthetics up until that point. So it was like a real kind of interesting departure that gives this record, as you say, like a lot of really depressing kind of haunting vibes and sort of pushes his sound to like kind of very depressing lows at points.

Ramon: Yeah there's a really great video essay I watched on this album by this album by this guy Reuben GV that like breaks down every single track and has a lot of fun amazing context about each one. There's like an interlude that has Aphex Twin's parents like singing "Happy Birthday" to him, and when I was listening to it like yesterday in preparation for this, it like it kind of broke my heart because at the end of like one of his music videos you see that both of his parents have like passed on. So, even though like there is this crassness and edginess, there's a lot of like heart and sentimentality on this record too. Even like the TikTok track "QKThr," it's been like memed on so hard and stuff like that and just used in the most random context, but when you listen to it in the context of the record, the accordion, it's actually kind of soul-crushing, like where it's placed, and I think it's genuinely a beautiful musical piece.

Anthony: But yeah it's also really, again, if you're kind of using this as an opportunity to get like a bit of a gateway experience into this sound, it's a huge record, it's a robust record. You're getting a lot of material, and on top of it, it's getting reissued soon as well. So kind of like perfect time to be thinking about this album honestly, because it's getting back in circulation.

Ramon: Yeah, and I'm gonna be honest, the first time I heard this record, I wasn't in the mood to, like kind of get whipped back and forth. I'm pretty sure there's like edits or playlists where you could listen to only the ambient cuts or only the drum and bass cuts. It's not the proper way, but you just want to find your favorites and experience how amazing this music is; like, I see no problem with doing that.

Anthnoy: Yeah, no I actually don't either. You know, Richard very clearly sort of assembled this album in such a chaotic way. Obviously, I'm sure to some extent that's purposeful, maybe in another way because you know he's he's sort of known occasionally for these, like, you know, esoteric song titles and labels that make it seem almost as if like the track that he's putting on a record came off an assembly line or something. Maybe there's like 400 other imagined versions of the same song, and you're just hearing the version that he decided to put on the CD in that sense. And in that sense, sometimes his records can, with the exception of a few, feel almost like a compilation. Like, "this is just stuff that I made during this time period, and it's just kind of flowing whatever way I decide." So if you, as the listener, decide like "I'm not in the mood for the most aggressive or harsh moments on this, maybe I'll just come back to it later," feel free to skip and sort of like go back to the moments that you're sort of personally in the mood for because there's just so much material here and you know how much you're enjoying it may be contingent into what you're into in that moment.

Ramon: Yeah, I think even Aphex Twin, in regards to this record, he said he lost like an mp3 player with a lot of lead tracks on it, and he wanted to put this album out before those tracks leaked on the internet. I think also, in regards to the track listing, he said, "when I listen to albums, I just kind of pick my favorites and delete the rest," so I guess he's probably not opposed to you doing that with this record.

Anthony: That's the creative process. All right, the next one that we're going to talk about, and we talked about that one for a while, but it's a big record. There's a lot to get into with it. So all right, here we go.

Next, I wanted to drop a recommendation for μ-Ziq's Bluff Limbo, 1994 record project spearheaded by Mike Paradinas who is also the founder of Planet Mu, which is a pretty legendary record label when it comes to championing all the genres and electronic music producers of all types. This one, in a similar fashion, I decided to grab because it's also a big record, also a double record, also 90 minutes long, also an insane range. Kind of like you know digging into that term of IDM, I don't know if the songs on this record that are more sort of like proper dance music, I guess you could say. I don't know if they sound intelligent to me as much as they sound like robots making dance music for other robots, which I actually really love about it. I think a quality about this record isn't so much what some might read is as this style's "pretentiousness," but more it's like sense of play and fun and randomness. Especially tracks like "Make It Funky," which is like one of the most ridiculous several minutes of music on the entire album. I would also add "Metal Thing #3" as well, which you know literally does sound like an electronic iteration of, like, a heavy metal track to some degree; it's very grating, it's very harsh. On top of that, there are some softer moments as well that I would say don't just kind of, like, scratch an ambient itch but feel almost like a 70s progressive electronic piece to a degree, almost like Tangerine Dream-ish a little bit. It's not you know I think to an extremely diverse degree to the point where you're going to be like you know whipped back and forth violently like with trucks but you know it really does feel like a compilation of a lot of different vibes and a lot of different styles. A little acid techno, a little bit of glitch, a little bit of, you know, ambient works, and a handful of other things. And you know, cuts that feel once more like you can kind of squint your eyes and sort of see some of these songs being played to a larger dance floor in concept. But there's always like something about the beat, or something about the synth passage that's riding over the groove that feels like a little weird and a little odd and a little off-kilter and almost like a little alien or inhuman, but that's part of what just makes it interesting and makes it special. And given that it's like, you know, so early into the sound and in the mid-90s and covers so many bases, I think it kind of works as like a good kind of gateway drug for this style because it just does so much

Ramon: Yeah, I actually hadn't heard this record all the way full until you recommended it, and I'd only heard, like, Lunatic Harness and, like, his most recent albums, and what struck me the most about it when I first listened all the way through was how like, saturated, warm, and almost like garage-rocky it sounds. Like it sounds like the synths are like pushing way past through your speakers in a way.

Anthony: Especially on the intro.

Ramon: Yeah, on the intro. Like a lot of the first disc and stuff, and I really, really, when I saw that it came out in 1993, like just like a year or two after Selected Ambient Works, I was like pretty shocked. I was like, "this is pretty forward-thinking," and, like you said, playful, but like hitting this level of fantastical journey that you don't really get on, like a more chilled-out Selected Ambient Works type record. This is very like somebody who had a myriad of different types of beats and ideas and a way that's informed maybe by, like, Detroit techno or like Sheffield bleep techno or something, but his songwriting is what really ties us all together. Like, you hear a lot of the classic, like Mike Paradinas melodies and a lot of this one just starting up and also on the first record before this one, which I also highly recommend. Yeah, this one's super fantastic.

Anthony: So yeah, that's that's one I would push your guys' way. Next we're gonna pull from another one that you brought to the table. You picked Autechre's Untitled record.

Ramon: It's actually pronounced Autechre's Untilted.

Anthony: Oh, oh my god. My dyslexia destroying me once again. In real time. I got got, but you know I want to say, admittedly I'm not necessarily like the hugest Autechre fan. Like, I've reviewed some of their stuff pretty positively over the years, but going back to their older works it doesn't draw me in as much as it does, like Geogaddi or, you know, like any number of Aphex Twin records, or even you know, Squarepusher, who's kind of like you know, my GOAT in these circles a little bit. But this record, though, I will say I'm not as familiar with. What made you choose this over any other album in their catalog? Because, you know, I will say to their credit, though, despite not being the biggest supporter of their work, I will say they had a really incredible and impressive run in terms of, like, the density of albums coming out in such quick succession, and each record kind of having its own flavor, and fans just going gaga over every one. Just like, over the years, they've proven to be just so consistent and so influential and just like really putting belt to ass in terms of just generating material. And dropping stuff super, super, super, super consistently, like the prolific run is impressive.

Ramon: Yeah, one of the most prolific acts, and I'm a real stan for them, like honestly picking an Autechre record for this video was incredibly difficult. Like most people, I'd say would recommend their third album, Tri Repetae, or maybe their fifth album, LP5. The reason I chose this one, Untilted from 2005, is because it inspired one of the greatest minds of our time who has sadly passed, who was Sophie. The story goes that she was a huge fan of Aphex and knew that Autechre was adjacent, but probably, like you and many other people, thought it just sounded like discordant banging to her. And the story was that she was on a flight, half asleep, hallucinating from tiredness, and gave this album another shot. And what really made it click for her was the durational quality where the way that the music morphs over time and how, because they break so many different conventions rhythmically and melodically, your brain has to latch on to like what little it can perceive. But once it clicks, it's this level of euphoria that I can't really explain in any other type of music, even in the realm of like IDM or electronic music.

I think the opening track "LCC" does a perfect job of preparing you for this. Like, you're so focused on this onslaught of sharp drums that's kind of electro hip-hop drum-and-bass tempo, but subconsciously in the back there's like these dystopian sound effects and chords that don't settle nicely either, and then when you finally hit the beat switch about like two-thirds into the song, it feels like so euphoric and like this whole universe has opened up. And this album inspired Sophie to pick up the Elektron Monomachine, which she would go on to write all of her early material, like "Hard" and stuff, on. It's like the IDM equivalent of the album that inspired Jimi Hendrix to pick up the Stratocaster. It's like, you have a whole generation of people inspired by Sophie, and Sophie was inspired by the metallic clanging and just the psycho acoustic effects that can occur when you are just sitting in these really discordant, dissonant sounds.

This album, I will say, probably one of the most difficult to actually like wrap your head around. It took me like a couple listens, but you're going to listen to this and you're going to think that you're just listening to some bullshit for a good two to three minutes sometimes. But once you kind of like sit against the wall and really press your ears against it and try to focus on like one snare or one melodic sound, it's unlike anything you've ever heard before. It's like a real brainwasher, but it's also like fun. Like when I hear these records, when I hear these like tracks, it's so it's so fun, like the way that the beats are skidding around in my brain.

Yeah, like even the closing track is like 16 minutes long and it has like three beat switches at different time signatures, but it does not feel like 15 minutes once you've kind of locked into it. And also, if you have trouble piercing this album, which is totally understandable, there's also a Glasgow 2005 live bootleg that's floating around YouTube that's a little more loopy and direct. And Sophie also was inspired by that bootleg recording as well.

This is a pretty esoteric entry point into them, but this defines IDM to me because there is literally no other word you can call this. It's like way too alien to be called like drum and bass or techno or electro or whatever. Like it's, it's its own thing. It's Autechre, you know what I mean?

Anthony: Well, also you're starting to describe what I think is another kind of like aspect and and element, maybe not a 100% necessary element, but a super defining characteristic for a lot of albums in this style. And that's sort of the experience of how did they do this? And I'm sitting here like really trying to figure this album out like a Rubik's Cube or something, like I'm trying to make heads or tails of what exactly is going on because I feel like I'm listening to a totally different musical language. And while, again, their back catalog is one that I'm still kind of acclimating to, but one of my first reviews of their music was Exai back in 2013. And I loved that album and I had the exact same experience in terms of like putting it on and it's a massive, I believe the album is just like a few hours long.

Ramon: Yeah, it's two hours. And they also have an EP that's like two hours long, too, around that that era.

Anthony: And I remember sitting there for a while and just being like, yeah, I just feel like I'm listening to some bullshit. But then after a while of really sitting with it and reckoning with what was going on, it finally like one track clicked and then it all kind of clicked. And then I felt like I was like really kind of like looking at all of these experimental Mobius strips of music where it's like this unending insanity and it, but it's also so stimulating and so interesting. And I felt like I was like, "holy crap, this is amazing. Like this is so great. I'm so excited to get into whatever they do next." And then that was elseq 1–5. And then I was like, "Wait a second, hold on."

Ramon: I know you weren't going to review four hours and you weren't going to review the eight hour one either. I knew it.

Anthony: Right, right. Exactly. It's like multiple projects on top of each other. And it's like, okay, wait, I'm tapping out. I have to tap out.

Ramon: If you want to know how much of a stan I am, back in 2014, they put out 30 live sets from their tour, and each one is completely different. I listened to all 30, just so you know. So, yeah. My brain is fried.

Anthony: Honestly, some of my favorite acts, I did the same thing. I would listen to them too. So I mean, best, but simultaneously worst time to get into Autechre because the very next album is like, "okay, I can't do it," but you know what, one day I probably will go back. I will go back. It's been 10 years. Maybe it's time to go back and just do the whole [thing].

Ramon: I think you will like this. If you like Exai, I think you will like this album.

Anthony: I probably would. And it's just that at the time, it was like, I was on such a crazy tight review schedule and there was like, no way I was going to be able to bust out a review in a moderate amount of time listening to like that many hours of music altogether. But you know, maybe it's finally time. Maybe it's time to do it.

All right. So moving on. Next record that I wanted to recommend is one of a few that we chose that are a little bit more recent, this one being Flying Lotus's Cosmogramma, amazing record, fantastic record. Flying Lotus, I think in so many ways at this point in his career, had been almost, unfortunately, despite the fact that there were a lot of influences kind of flowing throughout his first couple of records, had been sort of like typecast as, like, hip hop producer, an experimental hip hop producer, or like, whatever people were kind of defining as like the LA beat scene at the time.

Ramon: Yeah, all the post J Dilla kind of influence going on in LA.

Anthony: Right. Exactly. And I love the Los Angeles record; it's one of my favorite albums he's ever put out. But you know, you could hear even on that album that there were like some boundaries that he still needed to kind of like break past. And I feel like this record over here is really him, consciously or not, really busting down every parameter that fans and critics had set for him prior to this. And despite the fact that, like, hip hop is a prime influence in a lot of what he does, clearly, some of the most forward-thinking electronic music that came out up until that point was a key inspiration for his work as well.

And I feel like Cosmogramma is not only proof of that, but proof of how much jazz inspires him as well, and art rock to a degree as well, because Thom Yorke is in the mix on this thing. It's a really versatile record that lives up to its title because it does kind of convey an intergalactic kind of experience. One of the most amazing things about this record is how textural it is. And for anything that could be labeled as IDM, it's maybe one of the most, otherworldly records, like rather than inhabiting some kind of imagined space, built out of kind of robots and chips and so on and so forth. Like he feels like he's more content to kind of like fire off to the other side of the galaxy, but still have it kind of feeling like it's landing in that realm stylistically. It's a really creative kind of endeavor for electronic music. And I think, very, again, versatile and kind of like boundary breaking. And while I wouldn't say it's like a pure IDM experience like the debut Aphex Twin project, for example, it's really kind of a show of where the DNA of that can be taken, so many years down the road, if you have the right artist who's willing to bring in the right influences and has the imagination and chops to take it there.

Ramon: Yeah. I believe that Fly Lo was inspired to take this in a crazier direction because it was releasing on the seminal Warp Records. Like he's aware of like Aphex and Squarepusher and all of this legacy. And I feel like, in comparison to the, his past two records, of course, like the hip hop swing and like his usual wonky sounds are in there. But the thing that really elevates it is like all this, like insane string orchestration, all the free jazz, crazy drums and stuff. And it feels like it's just whooshing past you at like lightning speed. I feel like out of. all the records we've talked about. This is probably surprisingly the fastest-paced one. Like some of these cuts are like so hard hitting and like maybe one, two minutes max. Then it slows down in the middle and finishes amazingly with "Galaxy in Janaki," which is like maybe one of my favorite tracks ever. It's so cool because like you also hear like the electronic influence at the time.

I know that Fly Lo was kind of in conversation with like wonky artists like Hudson Mohawke and like Rusty and talking on like I chat, like talking about all this crazy post dubstep that's kind of coming out and stuff. And kind of to your point where you could make the argument that like the the Autechre record and the Aphex record is very robot-cold, maybe a bit soulless and stuff like that. This, in comparison, is very, very complex and very, like, incredibly well programmed, but still so soulful in its programming.

Like it really shows at the same time, you can't shake the feeling that this does sound like it was made inside of a computer in like a sense. Like just the way that the beats are hitting into the way that it's swung consistently. Like it really adds to the charm that what you're feeling is so unlike a hip hop record or an IDM record you've ever heard before. And yeah, he smashed it out of the park with this one.

Anthony: Yeah. You can almost hear, kind of like, the ethos of this music and the pendulum swing going the other direction around this era, because you could see a lot of early IDM as being kind of like a reaction to maybe some of the swing and the beats of kind of like popular dance music and some of the soul influences and so on and so forth. So kind of maybe the idea, conceptually was to strip all of that out and sort of make it like more rigid in a lot of respects.

And this is kind of like building off of that, but then going in the other direction using elements that I feel like because of the context they come out of, we just kind of whether they do actually or don't, we just kind of interpret them as having more soul because we interpret jazz music as having more soul to it. We interpret hip hop drums to be having more soul to it. And we can't forget to mention, of course, like some of those funky bass bits that Thundercat was bringing to the table. As well, a lot of Thundercat's early exposure and a lot of the excitement that was being generated around him early on was off of collaborations like this and his association with Flying Lotus's record label, which why is it that so many fantastic, artists and electronic music are running their own record labels?

What's going on here? You run your own label. You should have some insight into this. Is there a reason for this?

Ramon: Just because there's so much incredible music happening around. Me, that I can't collaborate with everybody.

Anthony: Right. Yeah. And you got to get it out.

Ramon: You got to get it out there. You want to give people the, you have, I have a small platform, and I want to use whatever I can to like put people on. And I think even though Fly Lo released this on Warp, I believe Brainfeeder was around at this time.

There was so much incredible Los Angeles music going on. Like he was, he's not like one of the, a lot of like the LA beats scene was doing. Like the kind of trifecta of what he was doing, where they were mixing, glitchy noises with like hip hop and dubstep and other soulful samples and stuff. But Flying Lotus, like elevated to a whole other degree. And that's not to rag on like the other LA beats scene. Like you have incredible records from like Daedelus and like Free the Robots coming out around the same time, and seeing that in this context, I feel like really elevates that. Even though all these producers are so forward-thinking and visionary. Like there's a whole community of other incredible producers that are also pushing each other, too. We'll talk about this later, but Apex Twin was inspired to make the crazy drum and bass drill and bass because he met Squarepusher, you know?

Anthony: Yeah, if we, we are going to get into that. But one more recommendation from you and then another for me, this is, another one that again, in this list, is more on the recent side: Skee Mask. You brought a record from him to the table. He's somebody who I've heard in passing, haven't been pulled to the point where I've, I've needed to do a deep dive. I know this album here has gotten a fair amount of buzz, though. Is there a reason, beyond that, that you chose it? Why do you feel like this is kind of exemplary, for the genre, even as like a modern example?

Ramon: I chose this one because it just feels very classic and very immediate. Like there was a, there was a funny comment I read where it's like, like every decade, it feels like we discover selected ambient works all over again. And I feel like this is the selected ambient works of the 2010s.

Like there are some songs on here where you feel like you're listening to the greatest breakbeat techno track you've ever heard and the greatest ambient track you've ever heard at like the same time. I think out of all of the ones that we've listed and are going to list, this is probably like the easiest to just toss on and vibe to. Like, you look at the artwork, and it just looks like a hazy winter and walking through the snow. Like that's how I feel. I feel listening to this record. It's like very dense, euphoric and frenetic, but it never like hits like this feeling where it's like pushing you to do something.

Like it feels very spacious all the way through. Especially with a lot of the dub techno influences, like the sounds that people describe as sounding like underwater; the first two or three tracks with the soundscapes, you just know exactly what you're in for. And I catch myself like head nodding, and what elevates it to a quote unquote IDM record above like just a, a good ambient techno record is there's just these little moments of like finesse that you hear throughout.

Like a finesse that somebody who's consumed a lot of Flying Lotus or like Autechre or like, experimental rock or whatever would put into a techno track. There's like just a clear funk going on here. I know Skee Mask is like a big fan of like footwork and like experimental rap and stuff. And you know, this is just like more of like a potent kind of chilled out drug rather than like an adrenaline shot like a lot of these records are kind of on here. It's one of my favorites to just toss on and introduce people to this record.

It's, it's very highly celebrated for good reason, in my opinion. Like, these songs are also just extremely catchy. Like, I can look at the titles and know what they sound like, which is kind of a feat for IDM, you know what I mean?

What's been your experience? Like seeing people talk about this record and Skee Mask in general?

Anthony: Again, it's, I hear it and I sort of like see why people are enjoying it. But like you said, it does feel like a throwback in a lot of regards. It does feel nostalgic of a certain time period. And I feel like, maybe it's not what I'm looking for necessarily in terms of like novelty, but like it's well produced. And it's, it's like textural and it's tasteful.

Ramon: It's extremely well produced. Like these drum sounds in the headphones, in the car, in the studio monitors, the funk is there. And I will say that production is one thing, in my opinion, that dates Selected Ambient Works pretty hard. And I feel like if you're not used to the harshness of that drum machine, like stuff from the nineties, it can be a little crazy. This is one I would probably recommend. If you want like a, smoother, softer listen, that's still very virtuosic in my opinion.

Anthony: Okay, that's funny. I feel like our recommendations are lining up side to side for like the same reasons in a lot of ways, because I think that we had those huge records off the bat. We had those middle records that I think shared a lot of experimental and kind of otherworldly qualities.

And I feel like this last one here, I pick because it's kind of my album in the list that I, I feel like is maybe the easiest to kind of put on and vibe to, and kind of to recommend to people, who are making, maybe less kind of like familiar with IDM or at least that's how it felt to me when I first kind of gotten to Squarepusher or the music of, Mr. Tom Jenkinson, who yes, this debut album of his, not only has music on it that went on to inspire Aphex Twin, but Aphex Twin had a hand in this album coming out in the first place because they were, good associates back in the day. Tom is not only a super talented producer, but multi-instrumentalist and bassist extraordinaire. That's kind of partially what kind of drew me to him early on as a bass player myself.

And yes, obviously, there are undoubtedly a lot of really choppy, fast, intense, crazy breakbeats and percussion work throughout this project that can run a little rigid or do fit very snugly into the techno realm. But simultaneously, it's like, all the live instrumentation, the live keys, and especially that live bass and the slap bass and the jazz sort of like, modes that he plays that bass in that sort of like bring a bit of a human component to it. That might be easier for those who haven't gotten into a lot of left-field electronic music, because there are moments where it does sound almost like you're listening to not just one guy kind of put this together on his own, but maybe even like a band to some degree. So there is like a real live feel to a lot of the grooves and a lot of the bass lines on this thing. And yeah, it's just this insane, very unique, not just for its time, just unique in general, because there are very few artists I could think of that have done anything like Tom since. In terms of like bringing together those really intense breakbeats, bringing together those drum and bass elements, bringing together those jazz elements. And I could say that maybe in comparison, he kind of perfected that sound a little bit on later releases like Hard Normal Daddy that feel a little more smoothed out, a little more finesse, a little more refined.

The debut is a little more kind of off the wall and raw and noisy and fun. It sort of is a display of virtuosity, but simultaneously, it still feels like he's kind of working out the kinks a little bit. And as a result, this album is a little crazier and a little more unhinged, I think, than his later releases. And that's kind of a part of the joy of it in my view.

Ramon: Yeah. I think the story behind this record is that Tom Jenkinson had like 80 or a hundred unreleased tracks or something, and Aphex Twin tracklisted this one literally out of the best ones. So you got to keep in mind for every track on here where it sounds very, complex, but playful. Sure, there's some mistakes, and maybe the production isn't as incredible as it could be.

Like you got to keep in mind that like there's three or four times as many material in here. And what we get here is like some of the most like funky, catchy, melodic, but also like, even though it like sounds very complex, it sounds so like effortless sometimes. Like the way he's playing bass sounds so like he's just casually riffing some of the craziest lines you've ever heard.

I can't overstate, like, the influence that this record and Squarepusher in general had on Aphex Twin and on IDM as a whole, because, pretty much immediately after this record, Aphex Twin starts putting out tracks like Hangable Auto Bulb and stuff like that, where it's like these really fast, like drum machines that are glitching in the same way, still has like techno sense underneath. And again, Squarepusher kept on doing his thing and like released so many albums. It's kind of insane how many Squarepusher albums there are.

Anthony: Yeah, if Autechre was your prolific pick, he's kind of my prolific pick, but but like with that being said, Tom is just so mega, mega, mega, talented. And and I mean, not just talented as a producer, but like, what musicians and musician fans perceive to be like traditional sort of like, studied music talent in terms of like really being a player. But he's often not kind of appreciated in that way because it wasn't actually really until like recent years that he started like putting together bands and playing out and like really kind of showing off his bass skills in person. Like people have to kind of appreciate and understand that, despite the fact that he had the chops and he had like, the fan base and he had the records, he's very famously a super private person and has, has even in an interview with me at, at one point, talked to, being a bit of a hermit in terms of, him, the, the life that he leads and everything.

So, despite the fact that his music is just so incredible and so mind-blowing still to this day, like a bit of a hidden gem because back during his prime years, he wasn't sort of shoving himself in front of everybody's faces in the way that some people were, nor did he have sort of like, to, Richard's credit, like the ingenious branding that he did with like, his face and the popularity of the debut kind of leading him to be able to do projects like, the "Windowlicker" music video and the iconic logo and so on and so forth. So just kind of goes to show you the power of branding and influence.

Ramon: I feel like he should be so much more appreciated. Like people talk about one of the reasons it's so hard to categorize IDM because I was talking to like my roommate about this. It's like, it's either the most calming, ambient stuff you'll ever hear, or it's super fast and frenetic. And like, the fast and frenetic, like spectrum of it; Squarepusher is kind of patient zero for it. Sure, you had Aphex Twin doing, like, hardcore techno and stuff, but it wasn't nearly as fast and drum and bass influenced as, like, anything Squarepusher was doing. The fact that this was released on Reflex Records, which is Aphex Twin's record label, it really shows that IDM in general was kind of this- more of a social term to describe an era- and, like, musicians who are really pushing their equipment as far as it can go while still being, as one of my friends, Matt, puts it, more musical than you expected, more like funky than you expected. I think that's the beauty of like, IDM for me where it's not, when you really listen to it, it's not just some bullshit.

It's like there's a inherent like freakazoid kind of like melodicness and like earnestness going on. You just have to really, really ingest the sound to hear it. And I feel like this Squarepusher one is such an example where the drums are going by so fast, and for electronic music back in this era with jungle and drum and bass, it was already considered very, very fast music. But this in comparison is like very, very fast. And you can't help but feel like the kinks and like, the quote unquote flaws of this record has is because he's pushing it so hard. And you know, that earns it so much respect in my book.

Anthony: Yeah. I think it's important to kind of put into context, like another defining characteristic of a lot of these artists and a lot of these landmark records is them sort of like using their equipment in ways that wasn't always 100% intended, which is why, like, so many of their tracks and so many of their pieces sound so extreme, and sound so noisy, and sound so weird. You have to think, like, some of the stuff in terms of, like layering 64 drum hits together in a really short succession at sort of this breakneck speed is something that you could, like do after a few clicks in any DAW that you could get your hands on. Whereas like sometimes back in the the day on whatever machine was in front of you, that's something you really had to kind of like plan out and capture in a super careful way in order to sort of like make it come across.

Ramon: Yeah, you said it best, in my opinion, like this is this is music that's really pushing its boundaries. And I feel like when people try to talk about what it what is exactly IDM in like the 2020s or the modern day and things like that, I think it really is the stuff that feels borderline like unlistenable to like 40% of like electronic music fans. Or, it's stuff that sounds like the the records that we put out, like I think it's totally fine where maybe you're not making the most innovative record, but if you're doing something with just enough finesse above ambient techno, sure, you can call it IDM in my book.

I'm not the fucking IDM police, you know? But man, when you look at these records, you really get a sense of like just what's possible in instrumental electronic music once you strip that need to like appeal to the dance floor or record labels or just literally anybody. Like all of these musicians have such a singular vision that I feel like you can really hear throughout all their works, and that's that's why I'm so nerdy about it, you know?

Anthony: Well, there we have it, a conversation with the chief officer of the IDM police, Ramon Pang. I appreciate you coming through and laying down the law. Laying down the IDM law. We will link to all your stuff down below in the description box. And I appreciate you helping me with this starter pack, man.

Ramon: I want to plug one record, one more IDM record. It's mine. I have a third album called Life Cycle Waves, which is also IDM. Go listen to it.

Anthony: Go listen to it.