Anthony Fantano: Oh my God, we're here.

Olivia Rodrigo: We're here.

We're here.

Thanks so much for coming. I'm really stoked. I've been a fan of you for a while. I sent you a DM when SOUR came out.

Oh my, I wasn't gonna call you out on this. I wasn't gonna say this.

I think it's important to know.

Okay, it's important. Look, your album was popping off and I reviewed it and the last thing I expected in the world is you were just, "Thank you for reviewing my album." And I was like, "okay, yeah, sure, no problem."

I think we didn't have another interaction until probably GUTS came out maybe, and then I think it was literally a similar thing. It was just like, "thank you," except the review was more glowing that time. And then this time I cut you off at the pass, and then I was just like, "should we do an interview?" Since you paid attention the last two times. And you were just like, "Yeah, let's do it." And now we're here.

And now we're here. Look at us.

Look at us, exactly. So, I prepared the perfect interview. Are you ready?

I'm ready. Ready as I'll ever be.

Alright, well, album's been out for a few days now. Are you shocked by the reception, or at the point of album 3, are you even paying attention to that anymore? Do you feel like you know what you're doing enough to just kind of tune out a lot of the noise?

I'd like to say I don't look, but like, reviews aren't everything, and commercial success isn't everything, but it sure is sweet when people are resonating with stuff, and when they really get it, and are putting bits of their lives in my music. It's a really great feeling, I can't lie.

And on top of that, with so many albums in, there's an anticipation element to it that there wasn't before, too.

Sure.

So it's like there's almost the pre-excitement and conversation of everybody sort of like, reading into the tea leaves of everything that you're doing, every single that drops. What did you think of, given your experience at this point, the way that people were reacting initially to singles like "The Cure," for example?

It's all really exciting. I feel like I had so much fun rolling out this album. It was really important to me that it kind of felt like an event, and I put a lot of effort into how I wanted people to listen to it for the first time and see all the visuals. It was really fun to build that world, and so getting to unveil it to people and seeing their reactions to it is just so much fun, and I'm so proud of all the work that I did on it, it just feels great.

Like you said, reviews aren't everything, but are you somebody who internally has a lot of strong reactions to music yourself when you're just kind of hearing popular stuff in passing? I know there's people online reacting to your yacht rock takes.

I know, we were talking about that offline.

As inoffensive as they are, but you know.

I do have strong reactions to music. Maybe not as strong as yours, and definitely not as eloquently put, but definitely strong reactions to music. There are some songs that I truly, truly hate, but also some songs that I truly, truly love. So, ain't that life?

Could you see yourself, and maybe this is something that plays into the story of the album, could you see yourself in a taste gap relationship? Like somebody who's on a regular basis playing songs that you just can't really stomach? Is that something you could live with?

That's a really, really great question.

And not one that I planned.

I think I could.

Okay.

There's something nice about like a nice normal boy too, you know what I mean? It's nice to have a guy with taste, but then there's some like normal guys that that's also quite refreshing. And sometimes I like it when people don't know a ton about my job. Could you ever? I feel like you probably could.

I feel like honestly, it's a bit of a constant. I've been in at least a handful of relationships where the other person has been just like diehard into Fall Out Boy, despite the fact I've never been a Fall Out Boy guy, you know? But I mean, you know, I appreciate their passion for Fall Out Boy. I feel like there are way worse bands to be into.

For sure.

Pete Wentz has interesting lyrics.

For sure.

You know?

I listen to his songs a lot.

Yeah, so I mean, you know, it's like, in terms of like preference, yeah, like I could totally be fine with sort of like being with somebody who doesn't have the same preferences I do.

But you want someone who has passion for music, though.

Yeah, you know, it's like who sort of appreciates it, you know, or can like appreciate other things as well, even if maybe it's like not their favorite thing.

Totally.

Like, I think like I care more about sort of like an open mind than I do like someone's specific everyday preferences.

For sure, yeah.

And somebody just having like perspective, you know?

Totally.

Yeah.

I concur. It also is really nice to be with someone who introduces you to new bands. That's like the greatest thrill of all.

That as well. I feel like, you know, somebody who has a passion passionate taste about something in a field, be it music or something else, where you don't necessarily overlap can put you on to things that you didn't necessarily know about otherwise.

Totally.

There's like a beauty to that.

For sure.

Yeah, but I find it very funny that you said sort of like, a guy who's into sort of like normal things. D you mean like normal music or who's into music in a normal way and isn't like insane about it?

Maybe both. I don't know. I'm still figuring it out. I don't have it down to a science, clearly.

Okay, not down to a science yet. I wanted to ask you, being a music aficionado yourself, do you also collect records or sort of go out to the record store?

Yeah, honestly, I should do it way more than I do. I'm a subscriber to the Third Man service where they send you records, which is fun.

Nice.

I feel like I discovered a lot of my early favorite records through vinyl collecting, which is kind of rare for maybe someone my age, but my grandma got me an Urban Outfitters record player when I was maybe 10 or 11, and my mom and I would go to the thrift store and get records, and so that's how I found Tapestry by Carole King for the first time. I found a Pat Benatar record that I fell in love with from this Tanya Tucker record that I fell in love with. So looking back at those experiences, I'm really happy that that physical media played a really important role in my life, because I don't think I would have found those on Spotify shuffle. You know what I mean?

And let me know if you feel this way about your new album. I saw what you were saying almost as a bit of an artistic graduation.

Oh, thanks.

Do you feel like you've hit a point where, I don't know, with this record you're reaching a certain maturity status with the forethought that you're putting into the instrumentation and the storytelling? You know, there's a bit of a narrative that runs through the album that we can get into as well.

Yeah. I do think that it was a lot of pressure because this is like, it sort of felt like my first like adult album. Like I made GUTS when I was 19. I made SOUR when I was 17. And so this album to me sort of felt like, you know, I just had to graduate in some way, if not for other people, just for myself. And so yeah, I don't know. I think every record I just learn so much about myself, but also about writing songs. I feel like every time I sit down and make a project, I'm just learning how to write a song for the first time, and I'm learning how to play chords and do all of this stuff. And then the songs that come out just sort of feel like my homework assignments of me just on this quest to figure out how to write songs that I like. And so I'm just always learning and constantly evolving, and I don't feel like I'll ever get to a place where I'm like, "I know how to write a song. This is all great."

But at what point with this project did you feel like you were not just writing songs but also sort of trying to think about how they all tied together in the grander scheme of things? I mean, you know, going down to like some of the final moments on the record where lyrics referencing back to "honeybee" pop back up again, you know? Like, at what point are you crafting these songs with the rest of the album in mind, thinking about where it's kind of landing in the plotline of the story?

Yeah, it sort of all happened maybe a little bit towards the end. I've never been a super calculated songwriter in that way. I've never been like, "This is gonna be the concept of the album, and this is the title, and it's all gonna look like this." I feel like the nature of the songs that I love and the nature of the songs that I write, it's very like, "What do you feel like you need to say today? What's burning in your mind that you need to get off of your chest?" And so I wrote maybe 6 or 7 of the songs and then sort of started to take a step back and see that there was a kind of a grander narrative arc and like the tying back to "honeybee" and stuff that was kind of stuff that we added near towards the end of the album to sort of really make it feel like a continuous story.

And while there is like a spectrum to the progression that I didn't really appreciate until I actually was able to listen to the entire record, like, the two sides of it really are kind of like night and day. You do move through these phases of like, there's a lovesickness section of the record and then there's an awakening section of the record. And, you know, like they're pretty diametrically opposed in terms of like the mindsets that you're in in those moments.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. That was a really nice way to put it. Yeah, I mean, it just sort of happened that way, but I'm really happy that it did, you know, that life sort of, took its course, but I always had the title you seem pretty sad for a girl so in love even before there was the very sad portion of it, just because I think that love songs are a lot more interesting when they're a little bit depressing and a little more broken or something like that, and so yeah, I'm happy with the way it turned out.

Was it easy to go back to some of those mindsets where you were maybe a little bit more in the weeds or sort of seeing things through more rose-colored glasses, given that by the time you were done with the album, you were kind of done with that whole process? Or kind of move through those moments and move through those phases?

What do you mean, sorry?

Was it easy to sort of put yourself back in that headspace to be able to write accurately from that perspective?

From like the happy perspective?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, or even sort of like, I don't know, I mean, you know, you could definitely qualify it as being happy, but there's also like an element of – you know, like on "maggots for brains," for example, you're almost talking about a certain level of delusion there, but you've kind of broken that at this point, you know? And was it easy to sort of get back into that space even though maybe the delusion is sort of over?

What's funny is that seeing people react to the album now, they're like, "Oh, these love songs are so sad. Like, it was doomed," or whatever. And I just remember being like, "When I wrote those songs, I thought they were purely happy. Like, I thought this was so like wonderful and shiny." And it's only upon, you know, looking back at it and having a little bit more perspective that you sort of see different things that, and then obviously that the internet citizens have pointed out for me. But yeah, I think it is a lot harder to write a love song than it is a breakup song. I feel like breakup songs come so easily and naturally. And it's like when you have something that you really want to get off of your chest and you're angry or sad about something, it's very natural to want to sit at the piano and pour your heart out. But it was a fun exercise for me as a songwriter to try to write about romantic joy in slightly more of a positive sense. And yeah, it's hard to do.

I think it's like a credit to your writing and sort of like the quality of the album that like, you know, there is this level of self-awareness of sort of the state that you're in and that it doesn't necessarily like feel "sane" per se, but you are still exemplifying that pure joy and bliss of like being lost in that moment.

Totally, totally, yeah. It's just about how love makes you insane and crazy and kind of depressed.

But then toward the end of the record, you sort of reach this spot of like, "okay, I'm asking for more now, I've reached this new level of sort of like standards for myself," and I feel like with that message, you really like, in a way, could have finished things off with "expectations," with sort of like that New Wave high point, but then after that, you decide to almost like give us a bit of almost like an epilogue with "cigarette smoke." Was there a reason that you sort of felt like there was still something left to say and there's kind of this sense of regret that I wanna leave people knowing that I'm still feeling?

Yeah, I just liked the first song on the album and the last song on the album being just complete polar opposites. It kind of felt like a completion of a cycle and I think going through a breakup, you go through so many different emotional phases. I think [with] "expectations," there's a moment where you go through a breakup and you're like, "woo! I feel relieved and I'm gonna go and hang out at this bar" or something. And then there's a moment where even in the best of breakups you feel a lot of anger, you know what I mean? I think that that was what "cigarette smoke" represented to me. I really love that song. We wrote it really late in the game. We almost didn't fit it on the record 'cause there wasn't enough time to turn it in before we had to press the vinyls. But I really like it and it just feels very emotional in a way that all of my favorite breakup songs are.

No, and I think it's like, it's insanely honest, you know? Yeah, it's true. Like you said, like that moment of expectations, that's real, people feel that way when it's over, but it's like, you know, there's like lingering emotions there that you still like address in a very real way.

Yeah.

I definitely wanna ask about the Robert Smith collab. How exactly did that happen? Was that something that you and Dan were hoping for or planning for from the outset, given some of the influences instrumentally on the record? Like what sort of made that, idea pop in your heads?

Yeah, so crazy, right? It's so wild, I still can't believe it happened. But, um, I met Robert for the first time when we played Glastonbury together, which was an insane, like, one of the most wonderful moments of my life and career, and, and I will remember it fondly forever. But after that, we sort of became friends and began, like, corresponding, and I was spending a lot of time in England, and he was like, come and visit me at the studio, and I was like, "Oh my god, OK, this is so exciting." And he's nocturnal, so I'd go over at like 9:00 PM and like stay till 3:00 AM.

Who would think Robert Smith was a night owl?

I know, I know. He's amazing. And I would sort of like play him song ideas that I had and just like talk about music and life with him, which is so special and some of my most cherished memories. And then we wrote this song, and I sent it to him. And he liked it. I was like, would you ever wanna like track a vocal on it or play some guitar? And he was super down and like sent us the stems and everything. And I just remember hearing his voice on it for the first time and like almost bursting into tears. I just think his voice is obviously, he's one of the greatest vocalists of all time. His voice just has such a distinct emotional quality to it. And like hearing our voices together was so wonderful and such an honor for me. And so yeah, it's great. And we sang that at Primavera the other day, which is also so incredible and got to see his set at Primavera too, which was insane. You have to go see it, their festival show while they're still touring, it's incredible.

Yeah, I mean, great vocalist and also for somebody of his generation, his voice has held up so incredibly.

So amazing.

Well, I mean, I'm sure you've heard the new record.

The new record's amazing.

The new record's great and the vocal quality is just as good as Wish.

I know. And the songwriting's just as good too, it's amazing. Yeah. It's great. He's played me some of the ones from the new record that haven't come out yet too, and it's incredible.

So, okay, so they're working on some new stuff?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great.

All right, the last album seemed, I mean, it was good, but it almost seemed like kind of like a sign-off.

Really?

Yeah, it seemed almost like a sad kind of goodbye in a way, or like, you know, we kind of feel like we haven't quite finished things yet, and if things are gonna be over at some point soon and we really have to call it quits, we might as well get one more in and have it be our best that we can make it at this time period. Is kind of what it felt like, but that's cool that they're getting back at it.

Yeah, I think that is public knowledge. I think that is announced. I don't think I'm saying too much, but yeah, it's really great. I think you'll like it.

Can we do favorite Cure record on 3?

Okay. Okay. 1, 2, 3.

Disintegration.

Pornography.

Oh, fair enough. Okay.

Fair enough. Yeah, yeah.

Totally fair.

I was actually going to guess you would say Kiss Me.

Oh yeah. I love Wish a lot too.

Wish is great. I feel like with this record you're a little bit in your Kiss Me era.

Yeah, totally.

Like, it is a record that is— it's sprawling, it's very heavy, it's very dense, there's a lot there. But also it's insanely in love. Like, it's just going through all these insane different movements that make no sense almost.

Totally.

But it's chaotic and all over the place. But Disintegration's a classic.

Love.

Can't fault that one.

Perfect. Top to bottom.

And I have to, of course, like, you know, address my dark side with Pornography. So, you know, yeah.

Of course.

Always reckoning with that. Also wanted to ask you, because you dig on some Weezer too.

Love.

You had that crossover that you did back in 2025, which I wanted to pick your brain about a little. How exactly did that happen? And yeah, let's just start there. I've also met Rivers too, total sweetie.

So sweet.

One of the nicest guys ever.

Amazing.

What was your experience kind of, you know, working with the band?

Yeah, I mean, I'm just such a huge Weezer fan. I grew up really loving them. They were actually my first concert when I was like 6 or 7, 'cause my parents were really into them.

Yeah, and there's that picture of you cheesing while watching the band in a Weezer shirt, which is an amazing photo.

Yeah, and then I kind of in my older age, obviously in my early 20s, fell in love with them again. I really fell in love with Pinkerton. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe I hadn't heard this album. I grew up listening to the Blue Album and stuff like that, and then finding Pinkerton, I was like, "oh my God, my world is forever changed." But when I was gonna headline Lollapalooza, I was like, that would be so rad if Weezer could come. And so I sent Rivers an email and he was down, and it was so much fun. He's great. We played pickleball after the show.

Okay.

He's a pickleball champion.

A champion?

Like a, yeah, he's like a pickleball savant. Like, he's so good.

Wow.

Really, really great at pickleball.

Okay.

And so we did that, and he's just a wonderful guy, yeah.

So you're coming out as a Pinkerton girl, is that what you're saying?

I'm such a Pinkerton girl.

You're such a Pinkerton girl?

It's, yeah, it's not only my favorite Weezer album, it might be one of my favorite albums ever.

You don't think it's a little much?

No. No, I love it. It's about like his, like the worst parts of himself, you know what I mean? It's like, that's what he says. It's about the most like, weird kind of horny, strange parts of himself, and I'm like, as someone, I mean, I don't ever veer into that territory, but it's like, that's what writing songs is for. It's for like exploring these parts of yourself that you don't really feel comfortable talking about in conversation.

You know, give yourself time. You could still come out with your own Pinkerton. Who the hell knows? You know, it's like, there's no limitation. You could be 40 and come out with your own Pinkerton.

It's true.

You know?

Mm-hmm.

Saying as much, Do you feel like 3 albums in, there's like an analog for this record? You know, is this like your Kid A? Is this your Rid of Me?

Oh my God.

I don't know. Is this your When the Pawn? Like, what record is this in your catalog? Where do you feel like this album sits with respect to your other projects?

God, I have no idea. Only time will tell. I just try to make the thing that's as good as I can possibly make it in the moment. I feel like you never really know until— I feel like in 5 years, maybe I'll be able to look at it more objectively.

Get a sense of it then?

Yeah, yeah. I'm too deep in it.

So we're working with Dan Nigro again for this record. How do you feel like your working relationship with him has evolved at this point? Is he listening to you in the studio? Is he doing everything that you're telling him to do?

Thank you for your concern.

Right, he's doing that right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's the best, honestly. He's so incredible and I'm so happy that he's getting all his flowers and he won Producer of the Year. I started crying when he won. I was so happy. But yeah, he's just amazing.He's one of my closest friends and we know each other so deeply and we trust each other so implicitly. I trust him so much. And he's very discerning, for better or worse. Sometimes I'm like, "Oh, I wish he would tell me that this song is so brilliant," even though it's not. And he really pushes me. We honestly had so much fun making this record, which isn't always the case. We tried different things, we brought different people in, we tried writing to track for the first time on this record, which was somewhat fruitful. We wrote "expectations" to track and "my way" was to track, which is not how I learned how to write songs. It's very like, "Write a verse and a chorus on a guitar and then bring it to the studio and see how it sounds." So that was a fun experiment.

But yeah, he's just really brilliant. I think we just have a good creative chemistry for whatever reason. I just feel really lucky that I met him all those years ago.

I mean, a lot of the aesthetic influences and genre touchstones on this record contrast pretty hard from your last one. Like, was the direction of kind of throwing in these reference points and these nods to alt-rock and Cure-era post-punk and a little bit of Riot Grrrl stuff here and there, was that sort of like a mood board that you had going into this album that was partially a suggestion from Dan at all? Was this sort of a part of your musical diet in the lead-up to the record? Where did a lot of these influences come together into this soup that was the final product?

I was just listening to a lot of that. "Age of Consent" was my number one song on Spotify wrapped last year. I listened to it like 300 times.

A song so good I ignore its title every time. Like one of the most mind-blowing – and by the way, New Order is better than Joy Division.

I agree. I agree. I was just listening to a bunch of that. And I think, honestly, and hanging out with Robert really influenced me, too. I was hanging out in England a lot and just listening to all of that stuff. I think it just had a way of infiltrating into what we did. I think I knew that I didn't really want to make like a [MIMICS POWER CHORD] rock record. For some reason it just felt tired and uninspiring to me. Not that I've ever made like a "real rock record," but I just wanted to have different touchpoints, I guess, for this one. It was a lot of fun and I'm happy that people are like picking up on those references, 'cause you always hope that they somehow make their way into the stuff you make.

Were there any songs in particular where, you know, when trying to capture a certain sound or execute a certain finish, either you or Dan were butting heads or struggling to figure out a way to really get it right?

I think "stupid song" was the hardest one because it is very quintessentially an Olivia song. It's sort of like the "drivers license" structure, and it's me on the piano, and I wrote it in my living room, and it's very earnest, and it was hard to— I love that song, by the way. But it was hard to try to take it in a new direction that didn't feel obvious. We spent almost a year producing it. We'd just pick it up and put it back down. And we only really cracked it when Dan started playing that guitar thing at the end of the bridge.

Mm-hmm.

And I remember hearing that and I was like, "Oh yeah, that's the sonic texture that it needs to be and that makes it feel different and exciting to me and not like anything that could have been on any other record." But yeah, I don't know, we're always butting heads a little.

I don't know if this is something that you could kind of get into the description of, but like, I love that you pick out that song because something about that track, at its core, there are some Olivia-isms to it, but I think what makes it interesting as a listen is that there is this almost like constant escalation element to it. It always feels like it's getting a little louder and a little more lush and like a little bit more emotionally intense until it reaches that final point. Were you guys constantly going over every single section of the song? Like, we need to add a layer here, this, just to make it sound a little bit bigger with every passing moment.

Yeah, it's a real structure that I like to do. It's the same structure sort of as "drivers license" and sort of as "vampire." It's like this big crescendo and like leading to a payoff. I love that and I feel like I like writing that sort of tune, but yeah, I guess that was sort of a subconscious thought in making it. I just want songs to feel cathartic sometimes.

I wanted to ask you to sort of dig into a little bit, you know, given the [GROWLS] rock thing, your mom's metal taste a little bit.

Oh yeah.

I understand she's a big Korn fan.

Huge.

Are there many metal bands that she's put you onto over the years that you're super duper into that maybe people wouldn't necessarily presume?

You know, it's a little bit of a blind spot for me still. I enjoy metal, but it's not something that I've really dug into. She loves Metallica too, and that's actually Dan's favorite band too. Dan loves Metallica.

Oh, okay.

So I have listened to Injustice for All more times than I can list in my life. Yeah, I don't know. She has great taste in music. My mom honestly puts me on to stuff all the time, which is so crazy. I went through her Spotify likes the other day and I was like, "Mom, this is the Spotify likes of a girl who lives in Bushwick. This is crazy. This is very tasteful and indie." And she's from Wisconsin. She's an elementary school teacher.

I feel like your parents imbued you with cool older sister taste. I don't really know how else to describe it. Do you feel like you've been passed down this sort of gift that not everybody of your generation gets by virtue of your parents just having sort of elite "ball knowledge" on the music front?

Yeah, I mean, for sure. You know what I also think I inherited from my parents? My parents are so passionate about music. I've never met two people who are more passionate about music. Love going to concerts. They just consume so much music media. And yeah, my mom put me on to Die Spitz also, who's opening for me on tour.

Okay.

I'm like, "That's so rad." Yeah, I definitely feel like I got a great musical foundation from them. But it's also fun, like a band like Weezer, my parents introduced me to them when I was young, but also when you get older, you're like, "Oh, I'm rediscovering this again," and I have a totally new appreciation for it.

Yeah, I mean, speaking of them, you do have the tour coming up. Are you ready to follow up Die Spitz's face-melting riffs live and in person?

Oh my god. I know.

Because I mean, they're pretty heavy. The first time I saw them live, they were opening up for Viagra Boys, which was already a nutty combo.

I've actually never seen them live. I'm dying to though, but they're just so, so cool and the music who's so great. Yeah, I'm really excited. There's some really, really awesome openers for this tour, and I'm just really excited selfishly to just be able to see them. You know, I get a concert every day of one of my favorite bands, 'cause they're all some of my favorite artists, so.

And you've got The Last Dinner Party too.

Love them so much.

Who are super theatrical, super over the top, very glammy. Is the glam rock scene anything that you appreciate on any level?

I mean, I love them. What would be considered glam rock?

Like, you know, a little Bowie, that sort of thing.

Ah.

You know, a little Queen.

Yeah.

Super theatrical, super lush, super over the top. I mean, given all the orchestrations on this record, I think it's something that you'd be into.

Hell yeah.

Yeah.

No, I am. I do love to write a theatrical song. That's one of the things Dan kind of had to reel back in me when we first started working together, 'cause I grew up in, like, literally musical land.

Oh, wow.

You know what I mean? And sometimes that doesn't always bode well for a pop song.

I think it bodes well on "less." I feel like there's a little bit of like a musical theater kid energy in there, but it still has a pop appeal to it. It's a good mix.

Thank you. Yeah, I try to balance the two, but yeah, I love a little theatrics, a little drama.

I mean, speaking of that sort of world that you were coming from, moving into pop music and mainstream music, do you feel like that transition for you and that blowup point early on in your career ever happen maybe like a little bit too early? Do you ever wish that maybe you had a little bit more time to incubate and develop as an artist and sort of like acclimate and adjust to the music industry? Because, you know, you're moving immediately from like these moments in visual media to a mainstream artist so quickly, and then just bam, you're there.

1 million percent. It was really hard. I think at the time I didn't realize how much my life and career shifted literally overnight. And yeah, I mean, I don't look back at the albums and be like, "ah, I wish I could have had more time to write this album." I look back at SOUR and I'm like, this is a beautiful time capsule of what it feels like to be a 17-year-old girl. And I wouldn't change that for the world. But everything around it was so insane. My first performance was the Brits. The first performance of my own song was the Brits. And the second one was SNL.

And looking back, I'm like, "that is crazy." And it's so crazy that I didn't fall flat on my face. That very well could have happened just because I had no experience. And I feel like that's why I'm so much happier and feel so much more confident in what I'm doing nowadays. I've been in it for like 5 years. I feel like I've gotten more of a chance to figure out who I am amidst all of this stuff. And that was definitely not how I felt when SOUR came out, which was crazy.

Well, still, I mean, you navigated those moments as flawlessly as you could. To what do you attribute your ability to have actually moved through that at the age that you were at the time?

I have a great family. I have great friends. I also think, I think it's important to be able to dissociate from like that part of yourself. Like, the me that is like sitting here and like gonna go hang out with my friends in New York after this is so different than the Olivia that's on stage. And I think it gets confusing when those blend a little too heavily. So I've always been good at trying to not take things personally, I think.

Another hot take that you had a while back, you expressed very daringly preference for mustaches.

Oh yeah.

Have you had any blowback over that on the internet after sort of voicing such a wild, out there opinion?

Oh my God, yeah. It's the most controversial opinion of all. No, I stand by it. I really like guys with mustaches.

I just, I really need to test that theory. Just like, you know—

Are you gonna show me like a weird guy?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I am gonna show you a weird guy with a mustache.

Okay, okay.

You're gonna tell me which one is actually like better, okay?

Okay.

Like we do have like a literal back and forth here. Okay, now is this better or is this better? Okay?

I like the mustache, Anthony, I gotta say.

But wait, but wait, there is this.

Oh, are you like trying to do subliminal? Oh, oh, oh, I see.

There is this.

You're trying to tell me that if I say no mustache, then you'll give me a ten.

I'm not— wait, time, time. I had my team painstakingly generate the same image with just the mustache being different, okay? I would not have someone on my team lie or fabricate any sort of images. This is the same picture, just one has a mustache and one doesn't. That's the only separation between these two.

This is like an ink blot test.

You're telling me you still think the mustache is better?

This is like some psychological exam that you're doing on me right now.

Ah, I don't know where to choose. I'm torn between my heart and the ten.

It's literally the same. There's no difference between these images except for the mustache.

No, I'm a woman of my word, Anthony.

Okay, all right, fine. Fine. Fine, that's fine. That's fine. There's no problem.

Also, what's a fake-ass job?

Such a good question.

What's a fake-ass job?

I've seen some deliberation about it online.

There's been a lot of deliberation. You're opening up dialogue.

I think mostly it's a thing that I've seen in guys from LA–

Music reviewer.

No, that's not a fake job. Listen, I think it has to do more so with how hard you work at your job and how much you're contributing to a company. I don't know. I think that when I said fake job, I was picturing the guys that I've met in LA and New York who have really rich parents who are like, "producers" or like "DJs" or like "creative directors," you know what I mean? And I'm like, I think you work maybe one day a week.

You can't fake that funk with you. You know real producers and DJs.

That's true. There are real producers and DJs, but then there are some fake ones.

Yeah, yeah, no, you know immediately when somebody's just pretending to be a good producer.

]Yeah, there are quite a few fake jobs. I saw someone make an edit to the song of all of the swipes on Hinge that she's seen of guys' random jobs, and it was quite harrowing. I think that it's a thing that maybe affects girls that are not in LA and New York as well.

Okay. No, there are a lot of fake-ass jobs out there.

There are a lot of fake-ass jobs. But you know what? Someone might actually say that, that my job is kind of fake, too.

Your job is not fake, Olivia. You, you actually have an audience very passionate about what you do. Your career is not a psyop. Nobody's being tricked into liking your music.

Awwe, okay, thanks.

Yeah, no, not a psyop at all.

Thanks.

Not fake at all.

Yes!

Off the top of my head, would you rather be trapped in a Backrooms labyrinth or a One Wish Willow relationship?

Oh my gosh, I actually haven't seen Backrooms. I'm going to go see it this this week. Have you seen it?

I haven't seen it yet, actually.

Okay, here.

Also, you're Bear. You snapped the thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm with someone who's crazy.

Yeah.

I would be in the One Wish Willow.

I'm kind of a little crazy. I'm a little obsessive too. I feel like I could do it.

So wait, you're looking at it, you're like, "I can navigate that."

I can navigate that. Yeah, if someone taped my doorstep, I'd be like, "Cool, let's hang out!" Exactly what I wanted.

"Staying home today, I guess." You're like, "you know, he just didn't love her enough." That was just really— you saw the plot and you're like, "Why didn't he like her enough?"

She did love him more than he loved her. That's sad.

When she said, "I feel like it's not mutual," he should have said, "You're right, I'm going to love you more."

Exactly.

Exactly. That's what I was thinking.

That's where he actually messed up.

Yeah, it was his fault all along.

In multiple ways.

Yeah, in so many ways.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Instead of not the wish to begin with, it was actually like "he could have just navigated this relationship better."

Why didn't he step up to the plate?

Right, exactly. He didn't know what he was in for.

For sure. Yeah, absolutely.

Another interesting question and – something that I feel like could be a point of discussion as a result of the narrative of this record – this kind of self-actualization process that you went through went through through the story here. Is this anything where therapy was applied at any moment, or did sort of a lot of outside discussion, you know, with people who are in your family or your friend group sort of like help along with the process of coming to this realization that like, I deserve better, I should be in a better place than I am right now?

You know, I think it's tale as old as time. It's like your friends could be like, "hey, you're not, like, why aren't you happy?" and say all this stuff and give you all types of advice, but when you're in love, you're like, "Nope, I'm gonna— this is what I'm gonna do," and I think that's a normal, natural thing. But yeah, honestly, my friends inform my writing a lot in different ways, and my friends inform my taste. And there's certain lyrics on the album that are direct rips from conversations that I've had with my friends who are very smart and introspective, and so that always serves as a real spot of inspiration.

Is there anything Sometimes that when you're writing, you really have to sort of consider what the personal impact might be in terms of this lyric or this moment references this certain person, and I know that they're probably going to be aware of the song at some point, or this moment that turns up in the lyrics? Do I need to check in with them or sort of make them aware beforehand? Like, "hey, just so you know, this is gonna be out and about, this moment that sort of that we had, and I need to put it in this song like this."

Yeah, I think it's a little bit par for the course for dating me. But there just certainly have been lyrics that have maybe even been too personal for me that made me feel uncomfortable that I didn't put on the record. But, you know, above all, I think that my job is to express how I feel and tell my stories. And when people react to the stories that I'm telling, I'm acutely aware of the fact that they're not really living my life how I said it, and they're kind of just like inserting themselves and their experiences into the framework of the songs that I've written. And so I'm well aware of that sort of projection that people do, and I think that's really what they're talking about when they sort of want to dissect my personal life or anything like that. It's always a projection, and I think I'm aware of that.

Yeah, people looking for something that isn't necessarily there, like an Easter egg or something like that.

Sure, yeah, and I'm like, I have my boundaries and I know what I think, and what I believe and who I am.

Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, it's like, one thing that I appreciate about your writing on this record and consistently over your career, there does sort of seem to be a very conscious, healthy boundary in terms of what you're willing to share or say, and it's really more about the emotional experience of the song than whatever sort of lurid details you can pack into it.

Sure.

You know what I mean? It's like, how do you sort of remind yourself again, is it through friends? Is it through sort of, you know, working with Dan as a producer that you sort of like make sure you're not having almost like that full Pinkerton moment where like you're being maybe a little bit too unfiltered and maybe too much information isn't necessarily serving the message in the way that you want to?

Yeah, there's a certain time when – and maybe I've gone too far in the past or something – but there's a certain moment where it's like, "okay, this is becoming a little self-indulgent," and I think Dan always tries to like keep me me from doing that. And yeah, but I don't know, I also think like specificity is a really beautiful tool when used and honed correctly. I was always like really inspired by like an artist like Phoebe Bridgers and how she uses specificity in her songs. It could be like the most random detail ever. It's like, "You asked me how I was playing drums, it's too much shit to carry." And I'm like, I don't really know exactly. I wasn't there when someone said that, but like, and it doesn't have like a a real emotional meaning, but for some reason when she says it, it's so visceral that you're taken aback by it. And so artists like that really inspire me in terms of specificity.

Last thing I'll say is that, again, you're heading out to tour this record and a lot of its songs. Given all of the interesting sort of visual stuff that you've built up in the lead-up to this record, and even that LA sort of like, what would you call it? The whole sort of like interactive kind of space that you had with the tree and everything.

Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

How much of some of these visuals or more are gonna be turning into or turning up in the live show? You know, like how much of this is sort of like gonna be turning up for these performances?

Yeah, I'm really excited. I feel like this album I've felt more visually inspired than the last two records. I've been having so much fun like, creating music videos and like experiences, and I've been very involved in that and having so much fun and like sort of seeing it as an extension of the creative process in a way that I haven't seen it before. So I'm really excited for tour. I think that this album, every single song on the record was very intentionally placed where it is in like the story of you seem pretty sad for a girl so in love and the tour's hopefully going to be kind of the same way. I want to be very like decisive and intentional about where all the songs sit and the story that it tells. And so, yeah, I'm excited. I hope you come. It would be great. The invite is open.

I'm gonna be there.

Okay.

I'm gonna be there. Olivia, thank you for taking the time. I appreciate it again.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thanks. I feel like we could have done an opposite interview. I feel like I have questions I want to ask you.

You know, next time.

Next time. Next time you're in the city. Yeah, next time.