Hey, everyone, Anthony Fantano here, the Internet's busiest music nerd. I hope you're doing well, especially given recent events.
Another recent event that I would like to discuss, though, which obviously is the main topic of this video, is Tyler, the Creator. His latest full length album, Chromakopia, has just gone number one on the Billboard 200. And if you add this together with the commercial and critical success of his past several albums, the guy has been on quite a run. Not no mysterious and you never hear it, and has really evolved and developed into one of the most massive forces in mainstream hip hop with no real end to his reign in sight. Keep in mind this is in the midst of a cycle for an album that is deeply personal, very moody, super conceptual and introspective, and led off with an opening single that frankly didn't have nearly the viral appeal that like "EARFQUAKE" did.
We'll discuss all these details in a second though. What I'm trying to say here is through his own way, on his own path, Tyler, The Creator has become one of the biggest stars in hip hop music. It's to the point where I feel like it's time for a discussion as to whether or not he is worthy of consideration for what we would call the big three. The three biggest, most impactful, most relevant, most significant current day hip hop artists alive and active. Active, doing their thing in the mainstream.
For a long time this was pretty much considered to be Drake, Kendrick, Cole, point blank period. But now, with Cole in many respects on the downturn and Tyler continuing to grow again, I think it's time to have this discussion and I've decided to have it with a hip hop commentator and content creator, Mr. Justin Hunt, aka the Company Man. Him and I are going to be diving deep into the many layers and questions around this topic and I hope you guys enjoy the conversation and also check out all of Justin's stuff and social media platforms in the D box down below.
So without any further ado, here we go. Babam.
Anthony: So here we are. Conversation is about to start. Justin is here with me. Let's jump right into it. I mean, I feel like we're both kind of in agreement on this question, but I feel like it's a question that still needs to be asked. Do you feel like at this point Tyler, the Creator is worthy of consideration for what people talk about in hip hop circles as "The Big Three"? Is he officially in Big Three consideration? With this new album he's dropped with the numbers that he's been doing and the artistry and consistency he has shown across his catalog for the past 10 plus years.
Justin: For me, it's an easy yes, you know, and it's more than just this particular album. Even though I think this album makes it very difficult to argue against it. Right? But I think before anything else, understanding what people mean by the Big Three, right.
Anthony: It's a good question to start off with.
Justin: It's crucial to this conversation. Now, I look at Big Three from the standpoint of impact, artistry, albums, success, mass appeal. Right. I generally look at the Big Three from that point of view. Now if you're from that point of view, Tyler has proven mass appeal over this past four albums now. Four albums, right? We got Flower Boy, that went two times platinum. We've got Igor, that's two times platinum. We've got Call Me If You Get Lost, that's platinum. And we have this album here, which is now with 291,000, first week, biggest album of the year. That's not a 10 year old mixtape from Travis Scott. Right? Mass appeal is there, right? If we start looking at, okay, well, what are these bodies of work? You know, these are dynamic, artistic listens that I saw your review on Chromakopia – I was going to say Chromatic for some reason.
Anthony: Yeah, or Chromatopia. It's easy to mess up.
Justin: Right? So. And you gave it a light eight. But you made a good point. It's like, you know, this project kind of feels like it could be stuff taken from Igor and stuff taken from Call Me If You Get Lost. So outside of that potential critique for this project, all these albums are very different, very different looks from Tyler, the Creator. So there's imagination that shows up that that is consistently tied to his name and his brand.
Anthony: And, you know, look, even before these records, I would argue that if you take into consideration Tyler and the broader impact of Odd Future at large, there was even arguably mass appeal at that point. I mean, sure, you could argue that a lot of the stuff from that era hasn't aged well. And he has done a lot of work to personally and publicly separate himself from most things that represented the art and the attitude of that era. But by that same token, there were few collectives that were as broad scale, culturally impactful to like youth culture as Odd Future was at that point. It was almost like, in a way, they sort of brought the idea of like the rap collective kind of back you know, it's like it was almost like in vogue again all of a sudden. And then around that same time, you had Maybach Music doing their thing and Good Music and Cool Summer and so on and so forth. It's almost like they sort of like made the idea of it all hip again and you sort of those ripples continuing through more recent outfits, like Brockhampton, who kind of came and went in away. If the idea of the rap collective coming back is owed to anybody, it's sort of Tyler and Odd Future.
Justin: I mean, when Odd Future showed up, they gave me heavy Wu Tang vibes.
Anthony: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they were spitting on some of their old beats on some random tracks here and there.
Justin: Right. and that's really what I think of when I think of Tyler, the Creator as an artist. I feel like he's a mashup of, if you took RZA and Kanye and smashed them together and spit them out, it would be someone like Tyler, the Creator. And I also think about longevity and consistency when it comes to this Big Three conversation. And, you know, if you take the current Big Three, as people talk about Kendrick, Drake, and J. Cole, that timeline lines up pretty well with Tyler, the Creator's as well, right? I mean, you're still talking '09, '10, '11. You're still talking that same time period, sort of when they burst on the scene. The thing that immediately separates Tyler from those three, at least initially, is he didn't have a huge superstar co sign coming in in the same capacity. He didn't have the Aftermath Dr. Dre banner, he didn't have the Jay Z banner, he didn't have the Lil Wayne banner. So his entrance into the conversation was from a branding, marketing standpoint, sort of on his own. And so, that needs to be noted because honestly, his three-album run, I will call it four album run now, came in the second half of the decade. You know, most of the time people start with their strongest stuff at the beginning. I don't know if we could say that about Kendrick necessarily. I would say that about J. Cole and I would say that about Drake. I feel like their strongest works in terms of how they were received. I mean, J. Cole may be sort of in the middle. I think his middle run Forest Hills Drive, KOD, 4 Your Eyez Only, tends to be his strongest stuff. But Drake, definitely, I feel like his strongest stuff was at the beginning of his career, arguably. Right? Tyler's hit his stride later in his career and other than what illusions he seems like he's throwing on this project, he doesn't seem like he has any plans on stopping.
Anthony: No. And you know what's funny? And maybe this is – I know, this is all vibes. This is 100% vibes. This is not reality, what I'm about to say here, but please confirm me if you feel the same way. Tyler, to me just comes off in comparison, even with Kendrick, who I've consistently scored more positively than I ever have, Tyler, to me, Tyler just comes across younger. Like he feels like a spring chicken. I feel like I'm being introduced to a new artist, even though I'm very much not. He should be at a point in his career where, as you say, he should be sort of, like, starting to turn down a little bit. And he should be maybe – not at his least creative – but maybe more at a point where he's just merely putting out albums that are just appeal to the very solid fan base of people that he's established over this course of time. But instead, he's expanding his fan base. He's experimenting more. He's broadening things esthetically and conceptually. And as you say, it sort of makes you excited in a way that gives you the sense that even the next three albums are going to be wildly different from each other in some way, shape, or form that's going to keep you on the edge of your seat and keep you wondering what he's up to after this.
Justin: Right. And then, you know, the funny thing is, is that when I think of. Of Tyler to that point of. He still seems like a spring chicken. He also seems to be growing more vocal about his competitiveness. How much he wants to be considered one of the best, top Big Three, you know, from. And I take it from a rapping standpoint, too. I mean, even Call Me When You Get Lost, that is a rapper's rapper album.
Anthony: That was the record he dropped because there were some people sort of questioning whether or not he still had validity as a rapper, still wanted to rap.
Justin: Right, exactly. And that whole press run, oh, my God, the interview he did with Funk Flex is classic to me. Because he does a great job in that conversation, outlining everything that he's accomplished, but also his hunger as an emcee, as a rapper. I feel moments like that throughout this entire project, don't get me wrong. Even though the conversation he's having is much broader than just 'I'm the number one guy come and anybody come test me'. But when he makes that Kendrick line, I think, what's he say? 'I'm biggest one in the west outside of Kenny.' Maybe I'm misquoting that.
Anthony: Sure he does say that.
Justin: He's right. And that's a big thing. That's a big thing because Kendrick is clearly the number one guy, so. And from a number standpoint, does J. Cole, for example, do 291 off of the next project? I don't know. And J. Cole, for me, we're talking about a Big Three conversation. To me, that third spot is most vulnerable. I feel like Kendrick and Drake have been solidified as the two best guys of that generation for a long time. Right? I think artistically, Kendrick has always proven it. Sales wise, Drake has always proven it. That third spot, I don't want to minimize J. Cole here, but there was a proximity and a correlation to me that made the most sense for J. Cole when he was coming in. But that third spot has always seemed more vulnerable. And if you look at J. Cole's last two projects, you know, I'd argue that J. Cole isn't necessarily trending in the right direction. I mean, he did double platinum for KOD, platinum for The Off-Season. Might Delete Later, I'm not sure if it's gone platinum yet. I don't think it has. But it debuted with 115 first week. As opposed to The Off-Season, which did 282 first week and KOD 241 first week. So that was 115 first week with a Kendrick Lamar diss track on it. With a Kendrick diss on it. You know, there's a lot of pressure on the fall off. If we're talking mass appeal being one of those metrics. Yes. J. Cole has a massive fan base that I think crosses over, that he's earned over the course of his career. But115. 115. Maybe that's a sign of an anemic music industry, but he also has more criticism on him now than he ever has. And if you compare the last three releases from Tyler versus J. Cole, the macro environment is the same. It's still an anemic music industry from just about everybody. Tyler comes up with a shortened week. A shortened week. He dropped on a Monday and did 291.
Anthony: Do you feel like this album would have done as well as it would have, regardless of when or how he dropped it? Or do you feel like there was actual validity to this theory that he put out there? That,, actually, as far as numbers and engagement, it makes more sense to put it out on a Monday? Because he sort of seemed to believe that putting it out on a weekend just created a situation where there were more distractions or maybe even less likelihood that people would actually listen to your shit. Whereas, if you drop it on Monday, it almost guarantees that. Just your thoughts on that, essentially?
Justin: Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting question. Honestly, I think he does this regardless. And I take that again from one, the excitement he got off the pop out, you know, when he came out at the pop out. Arguably the second biggest applause reaction. Maybe third, if you include Dr. Dre for that quick second. So he's always been there, but he's been building in this direction. His production is his production and has so much imagination to it. His festival is his festival, it has so much imagination to it. And he is an event when he releases. He's an event. And so you take the growth of the last three projects, he has won Best Album, Best Rap Album at the Grammys. He's acknowledged by his artistic peers. At the same time, the only thing that I question when it comes to whether Tyler is worthy of the Big Three, is that if you shift that conversation to lyricism, lyricism in a traditional sense, I don't think he holds up next to either of those three at this point in time. I think that he's not nearly as dynamic on the track as J. Cole can be. He doesn't lean into conventional similes and metaphors, generally speaking, which is something core hip-hop fans love about their MCs. I think he's littered with imagination, even if he doesn't punctuate it with all the beautiful things I love about language in the same context. But at the same time, if you put Big Pun next to Tupac, I'm taking Tupac every day.
Anthony: Right. Again, so many questions kind of bouncing around in my head, but going off of exactly what you were just saying right there. I wonder if, as far as Big Three status goes, is it worth sort of reconsidering what we consider to be lyricism that measures up to those kinds of criteria. You know, because the thing is while it is true, I was looking back at this album lyrically because there are a lot of differences between this record and Call Me If You Get Lost, for example, because, as you just said, that was his rapper's rappers type album. But I'm not necessarily unimpressed with the lyricism on this record. I'm actually very impressed with it. With the way he's able to not so much throw out a clever metaphor or simile or dive into a lot of wordplay, though there's a little bit of that there. It's more his capacity to, in a very kind of mature and thoughtful fashion, dive into topics and interpersonal dynamics that – I mean, it's the same reason that we glaze Kendrick over tracks like "Auntie Diaries", you know what I mean? Tyler is also going into these very strange, sometimes taboo sexual dynamics that are not often discussed in, not even just rap music, but popular music broadly. And going into them with a lot of detail in terms of, 'Oh, man, this is an unplanned pregnancy. Oh, man, I'm explore exploring all these sexual dynamics that I had no conception of before. Oh, I'm coming to terms with the ways in which I'm like my dad, who I have so many issues with and who abandoned me' essentially. Or that's kind of revealed later into the track that there was something difficult there with his mother. Anyway, I still feel like there is an argument to be made for his lyricism just on the basis that it goes into issues and feelings that are very difficult, but there's something very instantaneous about them. Whereas I know that I don't know, Kendrick, for as much as I love his music, it usually does take you a while of kind of folding it over and over and over to get the full impact of it to hit you. Whereas Tyler is dissecting these very hard and very difficult decisions in his life in a way where it hits you immediately what he's on about. And the emotional impact is immediate as well. It's easy. He's very surgical about it. And I feel like it takes a certain type of writer to pull that off.
Justin: I do. Yeah. I mean, that's another reason why I made the Tupac reference versus Big Pun, for example. Obviously, these are two legendary artists, but that is a quality that Tupac always exhibited that I think we love him so much for. He would take weighty topics and make them accessible for people who maybe weren't necessarily ready to address that conversation in their own mind or in their own life. Like, "Brenda's Got a Baby" is a very heavy song. You know what I mean? That song is wild. And so, I take moments like when he's talking about his father on this, or even getting the chick pregnant in London. And even the way he approached it, rapping from her perspective and his perspective.
Anthony: Right, right, right.
Justin: So he really captures the dynamic of that conversation in a very, all things considered, I would say very plain language. But a lot of the stuff with me is just how emphatic he says what he says. I don't necessarily need triple-layer entendres to get a point across. Sometimes an entendre can be distracting if you don't necessarily hit it the right way. But I don't think of any of those Big Three guys that we're talking about, J. Cole, Kendrick, or Drake, for example, to pull a Lupe Fiasco. I don't think any of them are necessarily pulling. They're not Aesop Rock out here. You know what I mean? So there is some room in there. And I think how you're able to connect what you're saying to your audience is a huge deal. Like, "I Killed You"? I killed you, bitch. I killed you. The hair song, the song is about hair, right? That's the metaphor in the song. I mean, that is impactful. That's a brilliant song, in my opinion. I don't know if I've heard that song necessarily from a male artist. Definitely a male rapper.
Anthony: No, I mean, you know, I definitely thought of like a Princess Nokia when he put that track together. It was a track off of her 1992, I think, deluxe project where she was addressing, not quite a similar thing, but she was definitely in a parallel there.
Justin: Or India.Arie. Yeah, that's an India.Arie song. You know, he took an India.Arie concept and drove it home from a male perspective.
Anthony: I want to talk about Tyler's mass appeal really quick because we both agree that he has it. I guess I'm just kind of curious from your perspective of somebody who follows these things broadly and is obviously very aware of Tyler's catalog, to what do you feel like he owes his mass appeal? Because obviously he doesn't approach his music and the music industry with needing to maximize appeal to the lowest common denominator, or it just has to have the most pop appeal in the way that Drake might. He doesn't have sort of like that traditional rapper's rapper appeal in the same way that Kendrick may in terms of coming down from that lineage of people endorsing him, your Dr. Dre's, your Eminem's, and so on and so forth. And with this new record specifically, I wasn't even really that crazy about "Noid". I love, for the most part, the rest of the record. But, you know, even if I were to be a fan of "Noid", I would still have to acknowledge, as a lead single, it's kind of a tough swallow. It's not the snappiest track, you know what I mean? It's just crazy that he's doing the numbers that he does while simultaneously, culturally, and esthetically being such the odd man out, such the oddball, in terms of what people typically think, the mold that we throw rappers into in terms of, you gotta say this, you gotta act like this, you gotta dress like this. And then on top of that, he's not writing the catchiest music. So in your opinion, what do you feel is making him hit as hard as he does commercially and resonate with so many people if he's kind of not checking these boxes that as an artist operating in this lane, I have to appeal to this, I have to do this. I have to fit into these boxes in order for people to like my music.
Justin: I think this may be a little bit long-winded answer, but I always come back to –
Anthony: We're here for a long-winded answer. This is an important question.
Justin: There we go. I always come back to Jay Z's "Breathe Easy", right? And he says, best flows, most consistent, most charisma, I set the most trends, and my interviews are hotter, right? And so he sort of gives – and I misquoted, I think I missed one – but that was the first time I really thought about all the different ways a rapper interacts with his audience. Now, this is 2001. Internet is pretty bare bones at that point in time. A lot of people still had DOS. You had to ask permission for your computer to give you permission to turn it off. You know what I mean? But the interview made a big difference back then. When we saw people on stage and whatever they were saying between songs made a big difference. Whenever we saw them in any video, any DVD that came out, you get to see them on tour, that made a big difference, right? And with Tyler, he has all those things. His interviews are crazy, by the way. And his social media presence is uproarious, but very poignant because he's very honest. Anytime he does a conversation, whenever he has an issue with something, he has an issue with something, which means he has a point of view. We know what Tyler likes and doesn't like that immediately brings people closer to you. And then you start just thinking about the impact of Loiter Squad. He had a whole sketch comedy show. So there's a whole generation that grew up laughing with Odd Future and the crew. You know, you look at the success of Earl, for example, or Frank Ocean, for example, right? So we've seen other Odd Future, Tyler, the Creator products have incredible appeal from a music standpoint on their own. You look at the success of his festival, at least Los Angeles, a whole coast of people who are used to running to Golf Wang store or to Camp Flognaw, and experiencing Tyler's imagination and his perspective perhaps separate from his music altogether, Right? And so you add that whole thing in and what you have is a star. You have a legit star. His interviews are better than J. Cole's, better than Kendrick's. I love Kendrick. Everybody knows I love Kendrick. I don't know how much I love Kendrick's interviews. I'm always interested to see what he has to say, but I don't see his point of view the way I do through his music. I get that with Tyler. You know, when it comes to being a human being, being a person, the Flower Boy reveal that he's gay or bisexual or whatever. Very risky thing for a rapper to put out there. It's a type of vulnerability I don't think we've seen from Drake. You know what I mean? If you start really looking at all the things that go into being able to move units as a modern artist, he is putting up Travis Scott / Kanye numbers this year and didn't have to be in a relationship with a Kardashian. And I take that all just to be just an example of how well-rounded his brand is overall. And his music is almost the icing on the cake because every time you see him again, his perspective is broadened.
Anthony: No, it's true. And it's actually kind of funny because we're talking about artists here who maybe are having – How do I put this? – It sort of seems like in the grander scheme of things, pound for pound, in comparison with all these other artists, Tyler has had just more viral moments. And not only just more viral moments, but more positive viral moments that reflect on him and his brand in a way that endears you to him. Whereas, like you said, J. Cole, Kendrick, they may do an interview, but maybe it's not so charismatic. Maybe there's no hot takes, maybe there's no point of discussion that causes people to come together and start talking about the interview. There's not anything that causes an uproar or nothing. A lot of Drake's interviews these days seem so fucking engineered. It's like, oh, I'm going to talk with my favorite collaborator on the beach, with two, three different camera shots going back between us, and we're just gonna sit there, like, I don't know if I'm gonna keep doing this rap thing. It just seems so fucking groomed to the point where, am I even living in reality? Whereas when Tyler hops on the mic in a conversation, you don't know what the fuck he's gonna say. He may say something that pisses you off. He may say something that you agree with and makes you feel validated. Either way, that compounded with the fact that there are all of those ridiculous viral moments from his social media, his live sets, the comedy show that he was doing, it just sort of seems like he just has more positive viral moments that people just sort of look back on fondly with nostalgia. And as a result of that, they're always coming back to see the next thing that he's doing. Even though his new record, to me, there is not a song on this new record. As much as I love "Sticky" and as much as I love a lot of songs on it, that has sort of like the commercial. Commercial viability of like an "Earfquake". That's like such an instantly catchy, unquestionably infectious song. And even for your typical rap fan, you would presume Call Me If You Get Lost would be just way more digestible, rather than going through these songs about like, 'Hey, I'm not going to judge this person because they're into some freaky sex.'
Justin: Right, right. I'mma buy a boat!
Anthony: Exactly, exactly, exactly. So, it's just a fantastic validation to see an artist really winning in a big way by playing the long game. If you went back to 2011, Tyler's probably the last guy you would ever presume would have played that. You would compare him to a Drake, to a Kendrick would be like, this guy's just a troll who can rap at the same time. Like, no way this guy is going to have long term carefully crafted brand and career and essentially become like the Walt Disney of weirdo rap to where I have my shows and my festivals and my art and my music and this and that and my fashion designs and so on and so forth. He's just so multifaceted in a way that kind of honestly, the further he goes down this road, it sort of seems like the less he has and any people kind of competing with him in the same way, it sort of seems like he's really one of one.
Justin: Right. And you know, I think a lot of the themes of his music tend to be comfortable with being yourself, take your mask off, and he represents that in every facet of his public persona. There's a lot of Kanye in him. You mentioned it earlier how he seems to be getting younger, and I feel like he's done a great job of getting at the core of what makes Kanye always seem like he's getting younger too, and as well as Pharrell, especially on the production side. But I think that Tyler's also really good at honing in on maybe not this generation, but youth, the feeling of being young without having to pander to it. I mean, there's a lot of think pieces this year about Taylor Swift and Drake and how they sort of have a stunted growth format or formula for their music. It's always appealing to adolescents. 16, 17, 20 year olds getting cheated on and not really expanding past that. I think there's so much more. I think youth culture is so much more than just those particular experiences or emotions. And a lot of it is identity. A lot of it is confidence. A lot of it is imagination and dreams and really encapsulating that and translating it into whatever correlates to that population at that time. And Kanye is amazing at that. He keeps those core themes. He'll arc the sound to whatever might be happening. He might have whatever features on it that can actually speak to that generation. But those core themes are still there. And Tyler has that, too. Tyler really has that. And I think this album right here is his fourth album of that. Maybe the first three did so as well, but it was much more jarring and antagonistic, sonically, in my opinion. If you look at was it Bastard, Cherry Bomb and Wolf. Very difficult listens for me. But the core themes of these last four albums, it's all about don't be afraid to be yourself. Don't be afraid to go against the grain. And those are also universal themes that I think he is able to capture while still pushing his audience, elevating two more personal things that he's experienced in his life, using his life as an example of what he means by those core themes, if that makes sense.
Anthony: No, it does make sense, actually. I feel like you saying this, I think it's worth arguing that this could be a major contribution to why he does appeal as widely as he does. It may actually, for a great deal of his numbers, be the messaging at the end of the day. And it's just sort of funny to continue to see, the generational animosity that I remember growing up with as a kid between people our age and boomers and so on and so forth, continue between young zoomers and millennials and so on and so forth. Despite the fact that through Tyler's music, there's this really a huge commonality in parallel that a lot of people aren't necessarily considering. When you are younger, when you are a teenager, at few points in your life are you more simultaneously conscious and sentient, but also at the same time, out of control of your life. Everything. You're not an adult yet. You don't have control of much of anything in terms of what you want to do, where you can go, what you can own and so on and so forth. And then especially as a male in the mainstream, in a genre of music that tends to be sort of as conformist as hip hop can be, Tyler has certain expectations on him, too, in terms of how he should be conducting himself and acting as a guy and things that he should be rapping about and shouldn't be rapping about and so on and so forth. And you know what I feel like a lot of younger people are identifying is his attitude that, 'Fuck that, I'm gonna just be how I wanna be. And I'm gonna make these general tracks about being yourself and celebrating yourself and encourage that other people do the same.' And of course, younger people who are dying for the first chance to get out there and do whatever the hell they want to do and actually be adults are gonna hear that and that that message is gonna mean a lot to them.
Justin: Yeah, 100%. You know, I was really excited when Tyler called out Ian this year. And it was more than just Ian, but he was calling out people, spoofing hip hop, spoofing our legends. Right? I mean, to me, it's very important that an artist have a point of view other than how great they are or how many relationships they messed up. Because as soon as they showed up, somebody's girlfriend ran and they started belly smacking. Whatever. Having a point of view on what's happening, broadly speaking. Tyler always has that. He always does. Tyler is already in the Big Three. I did a GOAT piece on Tyler two years ago. I rewatched it before this conversation. And the closing thing I said is, if we talk about this Big Three, if you're talking artist, artistry, it's just Kendrick and Tyler, you know? And so outside of conventional lyrical prowess, which I would give J. Cole the nod over Tyler to, if you look at everything else, I think he's in there, right? This year is such a pivotal year for that conversation because we did have all three of the Big Three square off one way or the other, right? And we really got to see what it looks like in a competitive standpoint, going at each other. And say what we want about Drake, at least he jumped in the ring. Drake is the guy who really didn't have to do any of this. He jumped in. So he's still super competitive. J. Cole? Tyler doesn't pull a J. Cole. As much as Tyler and Kendrick are cool, I don't think Tyler is worried about the same things J. Cole is worried about. And to me, I think that is the difference between J. Cole and Tyler. I feel like J. Cole really is worried about what other people think of him. As much as I think he presents well in a conventional hip hop sense in terms of proclamations of greatness – and I'm not saying that this writes him off as an artist or all of a sudden nullifies his contributions to hip hop or his catalog – but that is a pivotal moment. I don't see Tyler doing that. There's no part of me that says Tyler the creator is going to hit the stage at Camp Flognaw and apologize and remove his diss track. I mean, even before he deleted the diss track, he left that up for the first week, and he still only did 115. 115,000 on Might Delete Later. I mean, I think at some point, when we look at the Big Three, that fire, that competitive fire that's in there is a crucial part of it, because Big Three conversations to me are like GOAT debates. And GOAT debates largely stem across people who want the title, who want it. And it used to be a time where everybody seemed to want it, and now there's a time where less people care about that, but the people who do care about it still means a lot. And Tyler's one of those guys. So, to me, Tyler already is in the Big Three, and I think he's earned it. And if we start adding ancillary things, like who's producing their own music, I mean, only two of those guys are producing their own tracks. And I'll take Tyler's production every day of the week over J. Cole's, without question.
Anthony: Right. And for years Kanye has been a point of discussion in exactly these conversations. And the argument that's always been made is like, 'Well, he's a producer, too, and da, da, da, da, da.' And it's like, 'Okay, well, so is Tyler, and now he's doing these big numbers and so on and so forth, so he should also be considered.' Also echoing other things that you've said there, I fully agree with the Ian thing. And it's also just very surprising and refreshing, honestly, to see an artist like Tyler not only say what he said because it's true, but also there are a lot of artists out there that also feel the same, but are not willing to say it because they're afraid of potentially alienating the younger listeners who might otherwise hear their stuff. Tyler, at the end of the day, feels confident enough in his work to where he feels like these young people, they're gonna fucking listen to me anyway. Here's the fact of the matter – I'm gonna say something fucking real – Tyler's had these fucking white kids on lock for a fucking decade. Way longer than Ian has. I am sorry. He has had the white children fucking locked up in the cage, for way fucking longer than Ian, okay? And way longer than Ian ever will. So the fact that Tyler understandably feels completely unafraid like, 'I don't give a fuck', I know these kids are going to listen to me anyway. So I could say this, you know.
Justin: The same label, too, aren't they? Are they both on Colloid? I think they're the same label.
Anthony: They may, in fact be. But the thing is, Tyler didn't flinch because he knows that there's no possible way that any potential sort of crossover listeners that are there sitting between the two, and there are probably quite a few, there's no way anybody is just purely deflecting to Ian and is like, 'I'm never going to listen to a Tyler album again.' There's no fucking reality in which that's happening. And again, that's probably a consideration that a lot of artists always make whenever they feel any type of way about something some other artist is doing or has said to them or about them. And again, I feel like his work stands for its own quality, and he knows that. He's aware of it. And it's great to sort of see him sort of acting like that and sort of broadcasting.
Justin: And his live show is great, too. His live show is great, too. Just the energy he has on stage, his showmanship. We are in a very compartmentalized era. And what I mean is –
Anthony: The niche appeal.
Justin: Yeah, to a degree, 100%. And this is an extension off of what I used to call the fuck with you era. Right? It doesn't matter how good or bad you are. Only thing that matters is that people fuck with you. Right? And so this Kendrick, Drake, J. Cole conversation this year started to look like political media. To me, you know, it's like, there's people who view it as an affront if their guy got dissed. Right? Which is so contrary to what most of us grew up loving and understanding about hip hop. Like, it's okay if your favorite rapper loses a battle. It's fine, I mean, they're still gonna go on and do other things, presumably. And so there's a lot of sensitivity that I've encountered around J. Cole, you know, J. Cole fans. And I don't even want to just put it on J. Cole fans. I think there's a lot of people who have never encountered someone bowing out of a rap battle the way that J. Cole did. And that is such a brand new experience.
Anthony: I mean, there were a lot of, in this whole thing that just happened, there were a lot of firsts. So yeah, there's a lot of firsts. There's a lot of firsts. A lot of firsts.
Justin: Right. And so, in a weird way I'm looking at, it's made me for the first time watch people in scale, at scale, like masses of people question the validity or necessity of competitiveness in hip hop. Like, there's a lot of people who say, why do you have to do that? Why is that even a thing? Why can't it just be about the music? No, that's what always made hip hop great to me. I think to most people it's a competitive art form, right? And so that being at the core of hip hop in one way or the other, and I'm not even just talking about the music. I mean, every element of hip hop is wildly competitive. Right at the core of this culture is a spirit of competitiveness. And relinquishing that competitiveness when faced with actual competition is something that rings very loudly. And I don't see Tyler ever doing that. In fact, every time there was an opportunity for competition with Tyler, he seemed to go further into it. I mean, that whole thing between him and DJ Khaled, Khaled was completely caught off guard with the numbers that Tyler did when Tyler took that number one from him. Khaled had the entire Grammy winning, platinum-selling history hip hop lineup on that album. And here comes Tyler rapping about 'Be yourself one way or the other.'
Anthony: Mainstream-wise, Tyler has been a threat for years at this point. To what you were just saying, I agree with your assessment. I don't think Tyler would do what J. Cole did in that situation simultaneously. I have a hard time seeing him entering into it in the same way that he did. Tyler would have not stepped on the rake to begin with. He would have either smartly avoided it or if he was going to go into it, he would have gone into it. And if he was going to say something, it would have amounted to more than, 'Hey, TPAB kind of sucks. It's kind of a sleepy album.' He would definitely have more to say. And I don't know if he would take it as personally. He would probably even be funny about it. He would probably come up with a few funny bars. I think he would probably find a way to take the piss out of the situation and just actually make it entertaining while staying competitive in some form or fashion, rather than getting in his feelings about it. Because we know him to be, at least in some sense, a troll, a clown on some level. He's always going to be able to fall back on that at any point that he needs to sort of do that because people sort of understand that element of his personality.
Justin: And that raises a great point too, because he is the funniest of all those guys, right? You know, personality goes a long way in art and music and Tyler is hilarious. But I want to ask you real fast, so do you have Tyler in your Big Three?
Anthony: I think I would. I feel like at this point, with J. Cole kind of bowing out of this recent beef that we saw, with the fact that Tyler really sort of seems to be on the incline in terms of numbers, in terms of artistry, in terms of just being an all around talent. And I feel like it's also important to throw him in there as of this point because of the wing of hip hop that he currently represents, that we see more and more and more of, a presence of each year. I mean, obviously Drake represents purely the pop centric wing of the art form. Kendrick is more true to its roots and continuing to push forward in ways socially and conceptually that are thoughtful, that are meaningful. While Tyler, for all of his flaws, of which he has many, but still, I think he's kind of persevered as kind of like the wild artsy eccentric of the genre again. He's like a Willy Wonka type. He's a Walt Disney type. He's like a Jack White type. He's doing everything. He wears many hats. He's very in control of his image, of every aspect of his art. There's numerous layers to his art. To have him in there, it's important because in terms of what the next 15 years of rap music, mainstream music, whatever it's going to look like. We're going to see more and more Tyler, the Creators, because the social media age is essentially throwing young musicians and young artists in a situation where if you're going to be successful, it's going to be because you're wearing multiple hats. Not only are you doing your music, but you're probably handling your production on some level too. You're doing merchandising for your art and your album cycle. You're probably handling your touring and booking dates. Because these labels, unfortunately, right now are just like trash with how they leave artists high and dry. Ari Lennox, for example, who recently came out with that video where she was talking about it – and the thing is, I sympathize with that because unfortunately, while I do feel like the next 10 years is going to drag out more artists like Tyler who are going to do great things, all that stuff isn't every artist's strength. You know what I mean? Some people are just going to be really great at singing. And that doesn't mean that we shouldn't hear those people or that they're not worth platforming or that they're not worth giving a career to. And here we have Ari Lennox, who's sitting there trying to fucking take out a Google Ad for her for frankly, great single, because "Smoke" is a great single. And to think that a track that good and that entertaining and that funny is getting almost no label support is insane. But they're just not considering it because she's in the bottom rung in terms of their priorities at the label. And she's not getting as much social media hype as maybe some artists out there might be. It's just ridiculous, and to me says that unfortunately the strength and PR arm of the old days of the music industry is just gone. And the people who are going to sink or swim are those who are willing and are capable of just doing everything in house or as much as they can. In house as possible and just being jacks of all trades. And Tyler is the guy who, as far as mainstream hip hop goes, has proven he can do that the best.
Justin: Yeah, 100%. 100%. He has taken the reins of his entire career and not lost himself, his imagination, his personality, nor his creativity in the process. And I think that should be celebrated.
Anthony: No, absolutely. You know, I mean, in a way, it's like Kendrick with this whole pgLang thing. It's almost like he's kind of going back and kind of catching up to Tyler in that way. Because after so many years of doing what he did in the fashion that he did, he kind of came to realize, maybe actually kind of just going out on my own is the better option here. Whereas that's always been Tyler's direction.
Justin: Right. I mean, it's an interesting situation with Kendrick, too, because Kendrick, he's been on TDE for 20 years, basically. He basically grew up on that label, and I think it was really dope how they came to whatever agreement they came to for him to even be able to separate. Lil Wayne should have been so lucky. And what they're doing with pgLang, the whole marketing, advertising arm, there's a whole lot of Steve Stoute coming out of that. And I really appreciate that, too. They have a look, they have an esthetic, you know, and I think that's like their Super Bowl ad looks like they're – Oh, my God, what accounting company? I feel like there was a brokerage they were enlisted to do the commercials for or whatever – but just their overall presentation is, from an artist at the level of they're doing it, I don't know if I've seen something that was so consistent on an advertising side from pgLang. It feels really Madison Avenue, the way that they're approaching a lot of these things. But you're right. I mean, Tyler's ahead of the game when it comes to rounding out the entire. Tyler, the Creator, Odd Future Camp Flognaw, Golf Wang experience. You know what I mean?
Anthony: Alright, so he's in my Big Three. He's in your Big Three. And I appreciate you coming through and just telling us about it.
Justin: Yes. And J. Cole is out. I still have Drake. I still have Drake in there, by the way.
Anthony: Okay. Oh, no, I get it. I get it. I get it.
Justin: That's right. Drake stepped up to the battle. He's still represented for the competitive side of hip hop. That's a big deal.
Anthony: He has the numbers in impact that you can't really deny. You know, I mean, you could argue whether or not current day is the artistry there in a way that it was at one point, but still, the influence and the impact is there. And when Drake does something new, everybody's writing it down in their notebooks, like, 'Oh, I might have to have a track like that on my next album.' People are still watching everything that he does and trying to follow along.
Justin: Yeah. And I think all eyes are going to be on, obviously his next project, but eyes are really on the fall off now. I think there's a lot, lot of pressure. A lot of pressure on the fall off.
Anthony: There's a lot of pressure. To a point that you were making much earlier While personally, I think there's a lot to J. Cole's music outside of whether or not he's literally competitive in a battle or a beef sense at the end of the day. I mean, I've just seen so many comments and so many takes in reaction to how he handled all of this, where it sort of seems like a bubble has popped. Because unfortunately, like a lot of people – look, I like J. Cole, but the fact of the matter is – as far as appreciating him goes and liking his music goes, I'm like, pretty casual about it. There are a lot of people have been listening to him for years where they've literally been feeling every bar and every single time that he's put himself on a certain level or a certain pedestal or whatever. And unfortunately, while I haven't really had that come to Jesus moment because I've never been under the presumption that any of that was true or even most of that was true. A lot of people say that, you know what I mean? At the end of the day, when the rubber hits the road, you've got to prove it. He hadn't really had that choice up until now, and he didn't prove it. And sadly that disillusionment has come hard and heavy for a lot of J. Cole fans who are like, 'I don't ever want to hear him say that shit again, and next time that he says something along those lines, I'm going to think about it, I'm going to be like, well, didn't you do this and didn't this happen, and didn't you say this?' Unfortunately, that pill is going to be hard to swallow moving forward.
Justin: J. Cole is great – and I mean this complimentary too, by the way – J. Cole is great, like a great starter rap artist. If you're a young person or you're someone that's outside of hip hop, you want to get an idea of what hip hop really is, but also in a very digestible, low hanging fruit type impressive way. It's J. Cole. He'll give you the similes, he'll give you the metaphors, he'll give you the conviction, he'll give you the bravado, and if you're a new listener, you might be blown away by his framing and his metaphors, et cetera, but in terms of the broader scope of what he offers, even just if we just take his music, and from my point of view – I'm not saying any of this as a slight – if you just take his music at face value, if you've been listening to rap long enough to understand his influences, for example, that he's talked about, there isn't the level of imagination or genre pushing that you get from Tyler, from Kendrick, and truthfully, at his best, Drake. And so, you know, I think J. Cole is amazing for the space. I love what he represents. I love his point of view, his perspective through his music. I love the impact that he's had over the past ten years as well. In a time where everything's gotten more polarizing, where there is an artist who is a lyrics-first, artist who doesn't have to go into darker territory on a regular basis. Whether that's from a drill or trap perspective, he doesn't have to do all that stuff. Even though he seems to get more violent as his years go on. But having someone who just puts the music first and he can just ride his bike because his raps are so good. I love that he represents that. And that's why I describe him as a great starter lyricist. Like, if you're trying to get closer to the greats of all time, J. Cole's a great place to start because he will get you interested in the things that Jay Z Does so well, Nas does so well, Andre 3000 does so well, Kendrick does so well, Drake does so well, Biggie does. So he'll get you in that spirit to where you can be ready to receive the difference between top tier and everybody else.
Anthony: True. And it's not, as you say, necessarily a diss, it's not necessarily a slight. There are parallels in other genres. It's like you could fucking say, Metallica, it's like as far as metal music goes, it's good. But also simultaneously, it's kind of like training wheels metal, you know what I mean? It's like metal that you could show basically any genre of person and they wouldn't be like horrendously offended at it and everybody could more or less agree, 'Yeah, this is metal. You've got the beats and you've got the guy who's kind of yelling and you've got the riffs. And, you know, there are certain, like, thematic, you know, tropes that come up in most of the songs. This is like metal.' But is it the most technical? No. Is it the most edgy or boundary pushing or experimental or adventurous? No. But it's still good. It's just like the metal artist that basically everybody can agree upon in terms of like, 'Yeah, this definitely qualifies as metal music, and it's pretty good.' And a lot of people started out listening to them young and can look upon them fondly even though their tastes have matured over the years. So again, every genre and every movement needs those artists that sort of get people in the door And if it's J. Cole, it's J. Cole.
Justin: Yeah. And he should wear it as a badge of honor to be in the Big Three for a decade plus. Major accomplishment, major accomplishment. To have an album as successful as Forest Hills Drive. Almost nobody will ever have that.
Anthony: No, it's true.
Justin: I think he had a great run in the Big Three and I think Tyler is a worthy successor. And I look forward to what happens over the next, next 10 to 15 years. Because I don't think that whether or not these guys decide to make music as consistently at any point, in time, none of these guys seem like they're ready to slow down. And we're watching the success of older rappers continue in more dynamic ways than we ever have before. And as a generation, most of us grew up as the hip hop generation, where we were trying to explain it upstream to the previous generations. As a generation, we're in that position to where we will always love hip hop and we'll continue to support it one way or the other. So the ceiling is even higher for artists in this genre to continue making magic well into what. Well past what used to be old man rap. And I think all three of those guys will continue to push the margin.
Anthony: Justin, I want to appreciate you. I appreciate you coming through and taking the time, and thank you for contributing to this conversation. I'm glad we could agree so passionately on this question.
Justin: Yo, I appreciate the invitation. Obviously, I've been a big fan of your work for a long time and I'm happy to have called you a friend for a long time. And I'm glad that we got to have this conversation, too, because this is something I'm definitely, I'm in breakdown mode right now, I've been doing a lot of news on my channel, and the benefit about covering the news is it makes breakdowns a lot easier. And I'm in breakdown mode right now, and I definitely have a lot of thoughts on J. Cole and whatever's happening at Dreamville. So this conversation was great to get your perspective on things.
Anthony: All right, we will put links to everything of Justin's down below. YouTube, social media, all that. You guys should check out his stuff immediately if you have not. Thank you very much for watching.
Anthony Fantano. Tyler, the Creator. Big Three. Forever.
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