Hey, everyone. Anthony Fantano here, Internet's busiest music nerd. I hope you are doing well. Today we are having an exclusive conversation with up and coming band Maruja. Their forthcoming LP — really their debut full-length studio album, from what I understand — Pain to Power is coming out September 12th. They have dropped some teasers toward it. I'm very excited for it. We are doing, from what I understand, is their first big US interview and conversation. So, let's get it underway.

A: First off, guys, thank you for taking the time.

Joe Carroll: Oh, pleasure, my pleasure. Pleasure.

Matt Buonaccorsi: Yeah, nice one. Thanks.

The pleasure is mine. I appreciate that you would come do this on here. Look, I mean, having been paying attention to you guys since your past couple of EPs and really enjoying the trajectory that you've been on creatively since then has been a treat, but something that I think a lot of people are not necessarily aware of quite yet — and even what you guys were doing prior to that... I think there are a lot of new and excited listeners out there digging on what you guys are doing who may not even be fully aware of the fact that you guys, in one form or another, have been a band for about a decade now at this point. But it's really just been recently that a lot of the new material has been popping off, and you're getting these features and bits of exposure that, to the outside viewer, present you to them like, "Oh, man, brand new band. Cool! Never heard of these guys before. Let me check them out." But for this conversation, I feel like it's important to lay a bit of groundwork here to get people to understand the deep history of the group before we go into this big full-length release. I guess let's start as close to the beginning as we can. Give us a bit of background in terms of just how the band started.

Harry Wilkinson: It started on a fateful 192 bus journey, which is a regular route from Manchester Centre that goes south of Manchester. Basically, me and the old guitarist that used to be in the band, we've been friends since childhood. We've been in multiple bands growing up from 11 years old onwards. And then I was playing stuff I was working on myself and he said, "This is sick, we should make a band out of this." So that's when he introduced me to Matt. We had another drummer at the time called Dom, but we were 16 years old, so the music was very immature like our humble selves at that time. And then over the years, we progressed and changed the lineup. We got Joe in; Jacob then replaced the old drummer. And then as a four-piece, we've been going for what? Seven years now? Seven years?

Jacob Hayes: 2019. It was just before COVID.

HW: Yeah. So as a four-piece, this is what we call Maruja now. The stuff before was a completely different setup. It was a different band, different members, different ideologies. Like I said, it wasn't very...mature humans at that point, I'd say. So really like, now is only really representative of where we are in terms of our music anyway. So, yeah, that's about it.

Yeah, there's a pretty radical sound change from that point in time as well. I mean — which it may be due, in part or greatly, to the lineup changes that you were just referring to — but some of those earlier tracks and EPs saw you guys toying with some of the jazz influences and stuff that you certainly do now in your latest work. But also, there were cuts on there that were, I don't know, a bit funkier, maybe jam band parallel, some reggae touches here and there as well. You guys are doing a little bit of everything.

JC: Yeah, for sure. The early days were very like... I mean, now improvisation is such a spiritual thing that we set out to do. And we go into a room, and it's very healing for us. It's become this huge thing in our personal lives; it's almost like a religious thing that we do and helps us get over stuff going on in our personal life or whatever. But back in the day, it was like, "Have you seen this Red Hot Chili Peppers YouTube video?!" It was like, "They're jamming; let's start making jam music!" But that set us on a good path of discovering our own approach of jamming with the jazz influence and taking that approach that was less, "We're going to do this thing," and more like, "We can do anything." That definitely set us on our way. But the early stuff was very...we were into James Brown. We were into all sorts.

HW: Yeah. It's a bit funkier.

What would you say is like, I don't know, the realization, or the revelation, or the breaking point, the line drawn in the sand that brought you guys from, if I remember correctly, that 2019 EP to Knocknarea, because obviously, that's a pretty big stylistic shift between both of those projects. And as you were just saying, it's almost like the turn of a different chapter. It's like we're jettisoning some of the lighter and maybe breezier elements of the band sound, and we're heading into something that is predominantly darker and a bit more ominous in tone. At what point did the mood shift in a way to...I don't know, I liken it to an explosion, I guess? Or like, a phoenix rising from the ashes? It seems like there was a pretty big shift between those two releases.

MB: Yeah! Well, I think as Joe was saying, improvisation, it's always been a core part of our music, even in the light-hearted, funky era. But I think us four in particular, once the previous guitarist left, the four of us — and it was around that time anyway — the four of us were properly honed in on jamming. We just loved improvising all the time by getting a phone, putting it in the middle of the rehearsal room, hitting record, and then we'd play for half an hour to an hour. We just found that the more that we improvised together, the more we started honing in on something. There was just something different in the air with the music, and it was kind of like that spiritual thing that the fellows were on about that we started to tap into that. And we started realizing, "Okay, there's something really powerful with this."Because at the time, writing the funk-influenced tunes, a lot of it was catchy music, but we wanted to somewhat get into radio and stuff like that. We wanted it to be quite accessible music. But then the more we jammed, the more we realized, "Fuck that. We like this style of inaccessible horror that we're creating." And I think it's a mixture of that and just the landscape of Britain at the time. COVID was coming in, and we just had increasingly more tyrannical, Tory governments that we were just very dissatisfied with. And this all shaped together and molded into what you see now with Knocknarea: a lot more of a darker, but equally spiritual, turn in our music.

So there was literally an ideological shift that everybody in the band was going through at the time that started to seep into the music and seep into the creative process?

MB: Yeah, sure.

JH: Yeah. What Matt was saying is, when we first discovered jamming/improvising when it was just us four, there was maybe a few moments where we first discovered flow state and subconscious communication. Artists out there that are aware of what flow state feels like will know what we mean, and it's a really obvious thing to us that what we were doing — creating music this way — was completely democratic, ego-less, and a way to just connect spiritually and emotionally through the music you're making. And it was just the most complete way of creating a song because there's no one agenda that you have to meet. You know one person presenting an idea. It's all just coming from within us. We just decided that was the only... That's how we're going to create music from now on. The themes that we talk about are just...We improvised all the songs, and then from that, we then tweaked them, added lyrics, and have shaped different structures from them. Previously — sorry, after having improvised it, those emotions that we feel is reflective of the times. Matt was saying about the Tory rule. We'd just gone through Brexit. We was having an increasingly more right-wing shift in politics, seeing lots of more blame on immigrants and migrant workers. And then, yeah, COVID happened. So it was really just an outpour of what we were seeing and living around us. And I think improvising is just a really pure vessel for translating those emotions into music.

You're talking about the democratic creative process here, but how exactly... I think we have an idea of how that manifests in conversation, but how does that also manifest when you guys are literally playing in the moment and maybe one of you has a random idea, and you decide to just throw it out there? You know what I mean? Is there a way of one person does something and everybody follows in their direction in the moment, and it goes from there? Or maybe something gets thrown out and it doesn't quite take, and it just gets thrown into the abyss and we're moving on to the next thing?

JC: Wow. Yeah, it's pretty accurate! We definitely like... With the whole democratic thing, once you get locked into that, there isn't as much thought as that, to be honest. And you don't really... Because it's equally about listening as much as it is about playing. You're so tapped into what else is going on that every decision you make is following or influenced by something that has come before it. Or, you might make a little accident, and you'll then follow that. So it's almost... It's less like, "Oh, I might throw this in here!" and it's more like, you're discovering together and pushing yourselves with the energy in the room. That has led to us exploring really unique ways of approaching our instruments or really unique ways of transitioning from a certain sound into another sound. And with that approach, it just makes everything feel so cohesive, even though it can be like, some of the wildest shit you've ever heard. It's still all in the same world and all perfectly fit in with each other because it's all spawned from each other.

Specifically Harry, because I want to know how your lyrics play into this part of the band's creative process. I mean, obviously, you guys have up until this point — and I'm sure we'll continue to emphasize the importance of improvisation and everything...Obviously, one of your most recent EPs was this hugely instrumental improvisation release. There was also that vault project that you guys dropped that fans seem to be loving the hell out of. But what mind state or planning do you guys go into when you make that separation between "We're going to do a jam, we're going to record something that's going to be completely improvised," versus "We're going to move into something that is completely premeditated, we're laying lyrics to it, we're laying a message to it, and we're really working out the structure and all of the finer details," and everything like that.

HW: Yeah, I think a lot of the time we create...So like the boys are saying, the music is spawned from improvisation when we are literally just vessels for creative energy to flow through us. At that moment, we'll take the jam, we'll listen back to it and be like, "Yo, this five minutes here is absolutely amazing. Let's take this for a song." And then we will tweak it, and we'll be like, "Okay, well, we could have a verse here. Maybe this is a place for a chorus," or, "This is a bridge," or whatever it is. Sometimes we'll literally take the jam and just reenact the jam exactly how it is, and it's instrumental, or I might then write lyrics on top of it. But often it's taking a jam and then manipulating it into a song format that is a little bit more digestible, essentially. I'll then take away the landscape that we've created musically, and I will add my lyrics/message on top, depending on the sonics and how that's making me feel, what that is displaying to me creatively. This is me in a place of like, "Okay, maybe it's about this topic, or about this topic!" It really depends on what that song is giving to me, the music that we've written, how that's affecting me emotionally.

I try and write lyrics based on social topics that are deemed important to talk about. Because in this day and age, with politics the way they are, the truth is very hard to find. So in those times, I think that it's up to the artist to try and show their truth because everybody else has got a hidden agenda when it comes to politics or governments...people with a lot of money. There's a lot of hidden agendas, whereas the artist is just speaking out of a necessity to express themselves. So I think it's really important for the artist to be talking about these cultural matters, whether it's mental health, whether it's about war, whether it's about solidarity or love. It's about trying to unify people and trying to reinstall power back into them because I feel like we've been so disconnected in this culture from one another. Because fundamentally, that's better for production and consumerism; therefore, what we need to do as artists is to reinstate that power in people. Remind people that they are infinite, and that they are powerful, and that they are love, and that we can attain a lot more by working together through solidarity and love. And that's fundamentally the message I go about different ways of trying to get that across in each song.

It's really interesting because I feel like as a writer, you've become a lot more emboldened even in the past couple of years. And the shift is apparently even more radical when we look back to even in the earliest Maruja releases. Even looking back to your past couple of EPs, was it at all personally a challenge to write something that is as straightforward as "Look Down On Us", you know what I mean? There's a pretty pointed political message there. There's really no room for abstraction at all in terms of who the "us" is, who's looking down on the "us" and why they are — what the source of all of that pain and anguish is. You're really like, grabbing the bull by the horns on that one and not really leaving any room for interpretation. "This is what I'm talking about. This is my target, and I'm aiming at it, and I'm just firing away."

HW: Yeah, I think it's important to do both: to be ambiguous and also be to the point. Because a lot of the time, when a message is subjective, somebody can put their own personal interpretation on it, which will be integral for their state of mind in that moment. Whereas if I'm saying something as poignant as "They look down on us!", that's a message that everybody can relate to and everybody can come together and sing the chorus on because that's how everybody feels. The tech giants that tower over government laws...It's an absolute abysmal parade right now that we're experiencing, and everybody feels it, and everybody's sick of it. So I'm trying to make things that will allow people to come together and remind them that they're not alone in the way they think and feel. They're just being told that they're alone and being forced apart from each other because it's easier. Like, yeah, it's better for production, like I said before; it's better for consumerism. It enforces the narrative of the capitalist world that we live in. So I think it's really important through lyrics to try and bring people together, whether that's on a subjective form or through a poignant, strong message that everybody can relate to.

JH: Specifically for "Look Down On Us", we were getting into reading about Yanas Varoufakis. He's got a book about techno-feudalism. Then we've got others like Noam Chomsky, Gary Stevenson — reading up on people that are providing a newer, left-wing approach to reasons as to why our governments are acting in such a way. And for "Look Down On Us", it was the beginning of last year, we would come back and talk about the state of the world. We had a little bit of a break. Sorry, no, it was two years ago. Anyway, we had a little bit of a break, and in doing so, that gives us time to reflect about what's going on, and it's deeply important for us to be talking to one another about how we feel about things. And going into writing the album, we've had such a shift politically; the Overton window has just been going more and more towards this fascist tyrannical state. And as Harry said, it'd be really difficult to not speak about that because it affects us as humans emotionally, and our friends and family around us. You can't just ignore the things that are going on. It seems more crazy to us to be oblivious or to be ignoring things that are going on. So, yeah, we talk about them, and it bleeds into the raw emotion of the music. And, yeah, Harry is able to really constructively bring out our emotions about these improvisations and highlight that in a lyrical way. But it's definitely what we talk about when we're going into into improv sessions for sure.

Moving away from the hierarchical and systematic topics, I also want to address a track like "Saoirse", for example, because I feel like that seems to be more about a person-to-person understanding in terms of maybe not fearing the unknown, or maybe not necessarily coming from a place of judgment or hatred toward people who may seem different to you on the surface. That seems like where that song is coming from. What do you feel like that track serves in the greater narrative of the album? And what out there in the ether currently makes you guys feel like that's an essential statement to put out in terms of the storytelling that's going on there, the source of inspiration for that one?

HW: Well, I mean, it's our differences that are often put against us to try and make us fear against each other. What this culture is telling you from the news and political schemes and stuff: it's always trying to put our differences against each other. Like Jacob was saying before, blaming immigrants for a lot of the problems that are going on in this country and stuff. When we realize that it is actually... So everybody's experience...Everybody's perspective is individual because it's handcrafted by their own experience. So therefore, we are all students and teachers at the same time. Now, having the willingness to learn is being conscious. No matter how much you know about something, you should always always be able to expand your mind and learn more about that subject.

This is the same message as what "Saoirse" is about. It's about letting go of these preconceptions that this culture has put upon us to make us fearful of one another, and to remind ourselves that we are actually all just here to learn from one another. Because everybody's experience is different, so they all have a lesson to teach you. Sometimes you might not like the lesson, but it doesn't matter. A difference of opinion shouldn't mean that you should hate them, you know? And it's a reminder that it is our differences that make us beautiful because without that, we wouldn't have any nuances in life, and we wouldn't evolve. It's important to shift our perception towards these differences instead of being so hateful and fearful of one another. To understand that this is beautiful, and that this is what life is about. It's about being different, and it's actually our difference is that unifies by the fact that we're all different. That is a point that gives us unity. It will go full circle. So I think it's a very important message to put out, especially after a track like "Look Down On Us". It's like the whole message of the album is "pain to power." It's turning that pain into something that transcends it. That's what the artist does every day when they write a song, when they paint a picture: they take whatever has been affecting them — they take all that pain, all that suffering — and they turn it into something that can inspire people, that can empower people. And that's what artistry is. It's using a spiritual medium to connect people, you know? So that's why it's so important to have a song like that in the album because there's a lot of pain in this album. So it's important to show the positivity because that's what it's about: it's turning pain into power.

Speaking of that, I feel like this is an important topic to address. And this is something that I feel conceptually in music and in art has been debated for a really long time. Not to reduce what you guys do down to the idea of "protest music" per se, but there's a lot of conversation has been for around what the point (or I guess the purpose) of something like protest music is. The idea that, "Oh, it's something that we may enjoy, but a protest song has never convinced anybody of anything. It's just like speaking to the choir or whatever." Or, "It doesn't manifest into anything greater than maybe entertainment in the eyes of some people." But the thing is...I don't know, personally, while maybe that is true — maybe protest music predominantly appeals to the people who already agree with the ideology that it's putting forward. Simultaneously, I do think there is something to be observed in the fact that it's not something the music industry usually openly endorses, or pushes down people's throats, or celebrates, or tries its best commercially to put at the forefront, which...I feel like if it didn't mean anything and it didn't ultimately lead to anything, then the industry would see no issue with getting behind it as much as they might the newest, biggest, ass-shaking pop song, whatever. (Which is great as well in its own right, but whatnot.)

So I guess I want to know in your own mind, as a band who cares so much about the messaging behind what they're putting out there, does that culminate into anything greater than just an experience that the audience is having? Or do you guys personally feel like, "No, putting this out there, saying these messages, leading people to these thoughts, it actually does lead to something. It does actually impact a greater purpose, and we're trying to contribute to that."

JC: Definitely, man. I think, well, for example, our last show yesterday was in Zurich in Switzerland, and it was in the middle of the street, and it was a free show, and it's something they do every year. They get acts over, and it can be anyone. People turn up; they don't know what the music is. Although maybe think about the grand scheme of things: culturally, is it having this enormous impact? If everyone is having that approach, and they're touching people around them, you can never measure the ripple effect that that's having. I think when we were writing the album, I was watching 1971: The Year That Music Changed Everything. It goes deep into Marvin Gaye when What's Going On came out, and Nina Simone's story, and all of this. Just because now, that might not be at the forefront — 1971 was what, 54 years ago, whatever — there were people literally changing systemic issues just by releasing songs and releasing albums that was changing culture. So, I don't think you can ever downplay the impact that music can have. We also speak a lot about Bob Marley...and that's why a song like "Saoirse" is so important and "Look Down On Us" — just having those simple messages that people can relate to and scream back and hold dear in their hearts. That can... Bob Marley had leaders of countries that were fighting each other, having wars with each other, holding hands on stage. The power of music is so beyond what is culturally shown right now, and I feel like that is something we're trying to lean into just because it's not having the same impact at the moment. We would like it to, like Harry was saying, it's the voice of the artist that holds no... There's no hidden agenda there. We're relaying what we're seeing. A lot of people seem to be feeling the same way. If everyone gets behind that, everyone's feeling the same way, everyone's fucking fed up with the billionaires, with the same systems. If there's something that people can latch onto, you never know the impact that's going to have.

Yeah. I mean, it seems like a lot of people are looking at some of these songs that may make significant statements, and they're maybe seeing the lack of overall impact in the greater world. And I don't really know what it is. It seems like they're losing faith in the music when, in fact, those issues and those blockages and those problems may have nothing to do with the music itself. I mean, it seems like you guys, even in your own way, are confronting that blockage and that wall in terms of there being a prevention of progress and change on "Break The Tension". It seems like that's what that track is all about. It's like you acknowledge that there's all this anguish, and there's all this suffering, and there's all this distaste with the current state of things. But then simultaneously, there's also a tension there because all this energy and all this anger isn't going anywhere outside of into a pit of despair, or just a spiral where things are just progressively getting worse.

MB: Yeah, for sure. I definitely can see that frustration in a lot of artists and bands that we've met that preach a similar message. But I think the really important thing with artists to remember — and I know that, when we screen messages like this, we always get like...it feels like you can only do so much with your art as an artist by itself. It feels like you can only do so much without actively participating in governmental change, for instance. But the important thing to remember is that the more that it seems like things don't change when you scream at the world to change, you can either spiral from that and feel like, "Okay, well, it's useless. It's of no use. I'm just not going to bother." Or you can do the other one and say, "Well, if nothing's happening, I'm just going to scream louder. I'm just going to write more about this. I'm going to continue doing what I'm doing." And it's that longevity thinking that really is what made bands such as Rage Against the Machine, and artists like Nina Simone and Marvin Gaye, the legends that they are to this day, they're revered for the message that they went all out on singing about and preaching about, even if no one heard about it, even if no one gave a shit about it. It's the effort that matters at the end of the day, and that's our collective ethos, really.

Yeah. I think it's important to remember because a lot of people experiencing the current-day struggles of today aren't necessarily educated on the history of past political movements, and revolutions, and so on and so forth. Often how those things are documented, it's all about some of the lead up to that point, but ultimately it's more like the breaking point where whatever changes occurred as a result of it happened. Very little of the time is documented or understood. Maybe the hopelessness everyone collectively may have felt in the face of this issue that eventually might have gotten better in some form or fashion — whether that be Civil Rights Movement, or the Troubles, or any revolutionary movement on the whole — I think maybe what people need to understand is we're most likely going through a similar point now where things are going to feel like they're getting worse before they do get better in some form or fashion. But referencing back to Rage there, and maybe getting into some of the more musical ideas on the album, specifically going back to "Look Down On Us", was there any point where maybe everybody was looking at each other and coming to the realization like, "Boys, we're doing a bit of rap rock here. We're bringing rap rock a little bit back on this one."? Which...it's touching the third rail for some music listeners, but maybe it's time. Maybe it's time for a little bit of a rap rock revisit.

HW: Yeah, you should wait for the next single, man. To be honest mate, the hook was really inspired by "Not Like Us" by Kendrick Lamar.

That's madness!

HW: It's so simple, so poignant, just a very simple lyric: a refrain that goes around and gets everybody speaking. And yeah, that was how that hook came to me. It was inspired by that, by the simplicity of it. But then obviously the message ain't about calling Drake a pedo! Respect to that.

No, that's not the message of the track, for sure.

HW: But, yeah, I mean, that actually came from a jam that we've done. And I think me and Joe both came in to practice one day with the same time stamp. And we were like, "Yo, this has to be a song 100%. We need to work on this right now!" And then Joe was like, "I got the same timestamp!" So we were like, "Shit, okay, let's do this." And we just honed in on that for two straight weeks, weren't it? Just like, relentless, six hour sessions, just going crazy on it, not taking any breaks, just like, "We are getting this done." And then when it got into a studio — shout out Alan Keery, who did the strings and took on a life of his own and just progressed into this gargantuan monolith of a song.

Well, yeah. I mean, that length of track, length of time working on a song like this...I mean, you ended up with a 10-minute song.

JC: Yeah, I thought it was perfectly perfect single.

Yeah, I mean, that's the other discussion. It's like, how do you guys collectively get the balls to be like, "You know what? our single is going to be 10 10 minutes long. That's just what it's going to be."?

HW: We're supposed to go against the grain, innit? That's the whole attitude of it. Everybody's trying to make these little TikTok videos to try and get content and play all that game rather than sometimes just working on the music. And as long as your music and your message is strong enough, then it should do the rounds. We only really started getting more notoriety on it worldwide is because of music forums like Album of the Year and Rate Your Music and stuff. People got hold of our EPs because they were rated high on there. And after that, we started to see an increase of people listening to us. And that was because the music was good, and that's where we garnered a lot of our attention from.

And just genuinely organic interest in what you're doing from just word of mouth. I mean, it's happening digitally now, but I guess in a way that things used to be in a way.

HW: Yeah. The live shows are a testament to that. We go crazy at our shows. We give everything because the music is so important; the message is so important. We need to try and allow ourselves to perform in a way that is reflective of the importance of that. So we hold nothing back, and we let ourselves go to places that a lot of artists probably don't when they're on stage because it's important for us to let ourselves go because that reminds the audience that they can let themselves go. And then it's like a reflection of energy. So we're letting go, they're letting go, and that's where you can really touch people's spirits and make a difference and bring people together. At the end of every single show, I get everybody to raise a fist in the name of solidarity and love. And when you see thousands of people stood there all with their fist up, closing their eyes, all in the name of something that is deeply spiritual, which...The reason that we're here is to love, is to communicate, is to expand. Seeing that in its raarest form is like such a beauty to witness because that is really what life is about, and that's what's being taken from us in this capitalist culture.

MB: Can I just go back to your previous question about rap? Like, it's in rap with rock. Rap has always been a genre that we've looked up to and aspired to portray our music. I mean, Harry's like, an avid lover of hip-hop. And when it came to "Look Down On Us", because it was this big, long section, it was also modded with, I think it was another section from another jam. It was a lot more... It was in a major key, and it was a lot more hopeful sounding, but it still had this intensely, psychedelic layer to it — the intense rap section that comes before that. But rap as a genre, as a way of writing lyrics lyrics, it is very expansive. You can talk about a lot of topics or one topic in greater detail than I think you could if you're like, I don't know, Led Zeppelin or The Beatles. Which, they are incredible melodies because it's sparsely written lyrics. But when it comes to rap, you can talk about so much and go against the grain, really. And when it came to, "Let's put out a 10-minute song!" we didn't want to half-ass the message of it by releasing the first half. Because there's justifiable anger that how he's writing about in the first half, but in the second half, because the music turns more hopeful, there's a more hopeful message in turn about how we can overcome this collective anger and frustration that we're feeling. And so it's just a perfect combination of a 10-minute single and rap. That's getting our core message right out there. Like you're saying, "hands on the bull horn," or however you say it.

To quickly jump into the live show a little bit, and just to remind people, you guys are seeing incredible success with those as well. I mean, you guys have played a ton of shows over here in the US recently, and those were selling out, and people were going nuts over there. In terms of the live experience in general, how much of what people are seeing is just material that you guys have predetermined, songs you've written and methodically put together beforehand, and how much is like, "We're just literally going to make this up right now in the moment and just see what comes out of it"?

JC: We definitely... I mean, that's constantly changing and constantly evolving. There's always a big element improvisation, whether that's in between the songs. There's a lot of songs like "Kakistocracy" from Knocknarea or "Resisting Resistance" from Connla's Well that will just take on a life of their own playing them live. It'll never be a discussed thing, but we'll be playing them, and we'll get to the end section and it'll just all feel right for us to carry on for a bit. Then it'll be like, "Oh, we should do that again next show." So "Kakistrocracy" started off actually about four years ago as like, a 10-minute tune. Then it went to a three-minute tune. We released it, and it was about six-and-a-half minutes. Now live, it's about 11. To be honest, the approach is so trying to do what's right for the music that, if we're allowing ourselves to be as respectful as possible and as in the music as possible, it just can forever evolve. So that's something I'm looking forward to with this album as well, because we haven't played a lot of it live before, is to see how the songs evolve by the time we finish the tour. And I'm sure we'll be looking back at the album like, "Fucking hell! 'Look Down' is 20 minutes!"

No, I mean, it reminds me of how many classic jazz recordings and songs are just based off of massively long jams or even like... You compare any number of early classic favorite Velvet Underground songs to the bootleg and live recordings that they were making around that time. Like, literally, some of their biggest and most beloved songs that people enjoy off the first record — or even the self-titled — have 15, 20-minute live versions where they're just going on these crazy noise excursions that you wouldn't necessarily anticipate if you're just listening to the studio version.

Harry, you were referencing maybe the next single, Having some more hip-hop influence and whatnot. What are some genre fusions or left turns that you guys make style-wise or instrumentally on the record that the band hadn't quite expected up until this point, and it just turned out into something, just some new ground for the band?

HW: The last track was definitely a stylistic turn. That's a deeply spiritual song. I think that that song is, to me personally, one of the most important songs on the record because it makes me very emotional when I listen to it. I think it's going to help a lot of people alleviate emotions. The people that I have played it to have mostly all shed tears to it because it's emphasizing the importance of letting go and the need for love in a way that is very, very hypnotic and cathartic. But yeah, with our next single as well, we've gone a very, very...much much more like, hip-hop influence. It's influenced, I would say sonically... it's got Griselda influences going on in it, like Mob Deep, very dark, almost like, I don't know, some RZA production on it or something? Some crazy stuff. It's very raw, but it's totally us at the same time. So although it's inspired by that slow, grimey feel — those 80 BPM like, "scrunch your face up to it" type of beat — it is very much like a Maruja song in its own rights because of all the crazy instrumentation. The bass line is just murky. That's the only word I've got to describe that. And then it's got all these beautiful sax harmonies that correspond with the chorus and the guitar effects. So as industrial as it gets, it's just very much Maruja but taking a new direction. Because I feel like us as musicians, we can really jump into any avenue pretty much that we want to at this point, maybe bar some. But if we want to create more hip-hop stuff, more jazz stuff, more improv stuff, more rock, whatever it is, we can adjust and adapt. And that's the beauty of of us jamming together for so long, being a band for so long, just improvising in dingy rooms in Manchester for so many hours, so many weeks a year. Now we're able to basically turn all of that effort into something that is powerful and engaging, and that is genre-defying because this album pushes through all different types of genres in in the aspect, really.

As we were saying just toward the start of the interview, obviously, a lot of thought behind the messaging of each of these tracks individually...There's just been a lot of thought going into that. There's been a lot of thought going into the title of the album. But with this being a big, proper studio record release, and this being such a big project, was there any thought going into the overall progression of the tracklist? Is there an evolution of the messaging and the mood across the album, according to what you guys are saying for track after track?

JH: Yeah. We've been thinking about this for a long time, to be fair. The debut album, we wanted to do it as much as people on the internet have been screaming at us to get it out. It's just taking time, money, and the ability to do it. It's a lot more effort than I think people realize. A lot of the time people are shouting at you. They expect you can just do it, a drop of a hat.

I imagine the demand has been insane. It's funny. I look back to the first EP that I heard from you guys, and I don't know, maybe it's just because of my job or something, it doesn't feel like it's been that long, but I'm sure for you guys dealing with your most passionate fans on a regular basis and hearing them be like, "Where's the album?!" I'm sure it feels like maybe it's been longer than it actually has.

JH: Yeah. We first recorded the first three tracks of Knocknarea in 2021. So it's been a while. But the nature of the music industry means that, because of streaming platforms, because of the way that has basically meant the industry works, we and peers of ours — lots of people coming up in bands — it's very difficult to monetize yourself. You can't make as much money obviously, because streaming doesn't pay you anything really for it. So you have to constantly be gigging. And it's an enormous stress and strain on a lot of our mental healths. And it's a necessary part of what we do, and we love performing live. It's a really integral thing for us. But trying to allow space to write music was difficult. We had one of the songs, "Born to Die". We'd actually written that maybe two or three years ago, and that felt like a really clear shift from Connla's Well, which hadn't actually come out yet. And that was a big pillar for us of, "This is a sound and a world that we can really think on and write around it." And then we had "Look Down On Us" be written, and these two enormous tracks providing real scope of emotion. And "Look Down On Us", as you can hear, it goes through this almost that call-and-response of angst and explaining the problems that are going on in society and then the solutions to it. That was also similar in this opposite way to what "Born to Die" was doing. And that was a really important thing for us to be able to provide perspective, and to have the dark moments, and then to show the light of it. So, yeah, the album's been thought-out in that process, and that tracklisting is, with that in mind, trying to provide you with hope and light and positivity and power whilst going through pain.

HW: Yeah, I'd add to that to say it's Pain to Power. It's like, if you hear the start of the album, it starts off and it is very aggressive, painful, comes from a lot of suffering. And then you get into the second half of "Look Down" going into "Saoirse", and it's like you're turning that pain into power. And this whole checklist thing is about turning your pain into power. And it does that. It's almost like two albums in one, like the way that "Born to Die" finishes and then goes straight back into "Break The Tension". And it's like, there: you're blasted back into this painful place because life will always have these peaks and troughs of...You might be doing well for a minute, but there's going to be something around the corner that you're not expecting that'll bring you right back down, or there might be something happening in your family that'll bring you right down. And it's about...How do we pick ourselves up when we fall down? And that's really what this album is doing in this tracklisting; it's showing you these painful places and turning it into something empowering. And then going back to the pain again because music is a reflection of life, you know? And life is soft, it's hard, it's anxious, it's scary. It's every emotion known to mankind — is what life is. So it's important for us in an album like Pain to Power to represent that, and to represent that for the track listing.

And also with the message as well, how it fluctuates in terms of the actual track titles themselves. A lot of this album was written during very pivotal changes in culture globally. Like, Trump coming into power for the second time in America... what was going on in Palestine. These were very, very prevalent subject matters and things that were taken into consideration whilst we were creating the album because they were literally happening in real-time as we were in the studio. So there's tracks like "Trenches", which is the next single, which is a call for revolution. There's a direct quote from Fred Hampton on there, which is, "The people will not believe they are revolution. There will be no revolution until the people believe that they are revolutionary." So this whole song is about self-belief. It's about self-empowerment. It's about understanding that you can make the change that is desired in the world. But first of all, you have to take responsibility to be that change. So that's what that song is about. The hook is, "I'll see you in the trenches" because that's where we're going to see people doing the groundwork. We'll see you at the protests. We'll see you at the festivals. We'll see you at the places where we can come together in moments of solidarity, where we can connect and we can inspire a conversation that are going to make the changes that are going to have a ripple effect throughout culture.

And then After "Trenches", which is a song about revolution and obviously references war with the hook, "I'll see you in the trenches", the next song is "Zaytun", which is the Arabic term for "olive tree," which symbolizes peace. And then after that, it's the track "Reconcile" because all we can do at those moments is to reconcile. We can't carry on deliberating over the past because the past is the past, and there has to be a moment in time where we all agree that now is the time for peace and forgiveness, and we'll let the past slide so that we can actually attain what's right for our children now. You know what I mean? So it has been thought out, the track listing, yeah.

Taking off what you just said there, I feel like it's important to double back to earlier in the conversation we were talking about the significance of protest music and the state of the music industry when it comes to records and songs that are putting forward the types of ideas that you guys are putting out there. I think it's significant to highlight that there are a lot of artists out there right now that are speaking out on a myriad of different topics, and they're not necessarily getting all the praise in the world for doing so. Or they're even seeing their careers take a hit as a result, or seeing some legal difficulties, be it like, Kneecap, or be it Bob Vylan, and the list goes on. As you guys are crafting the messages behind any of the songs on this record or how you present yourselves live as well, is there any anxiety or hesitance around, "If we say this or we say that, or if we draw attention to this issue, will there be some people in the music industry who crush us or give us a hard time because we're speaking truth to power, highlighting some issues that we believe in"?

JC: I think maybe... Because we're seeing the consequences, it makes us more... It's almost a lesson to show us the importance of how we portray what we're doing, and why we're portraying what we're doing. I think in terms of it giving us a bit of anxiety and stuff like that, to be honest, the atrocities are so appalling that it completely dwarfss any like, "Oh, this is going to affect our career!" We're still in a very difficult position financially, trying to get things off the ground and stuff, but it would be so against everything that we believe in. Those problems that we could face are really dwarfed by the actual problems that are going on themselves.

We are very aware of the impact it's having on artists that are speaking out. But the other day, there was an organization — I think they're from the UK called Palestine Action — and they were prescribed as a terrorist organization. Still everyday, there's people that are going with signs outside, like Parliament or wherever, going, "We are against genocide. We support Palestine Action." And a lot of those, I think over 50% are over the age of 60. And it's people that are...They've completely put in aside the personal impact it's going to have. Even though they're one of 500 — and if they didn't turn up, they could just get on with their own lives — they're all putting themselves in the firing line because they see the importance of what's going on. And the more people that do that, the less the powers that be are going to be able to stop it. And all these things we're aware, and a lot of people are aware, they're all distraction tactics. So our fundamental message is to give voice to the voiceless, especially with what's going on in Palestine and stuff. So we're aware that this might jeopardize our visas. But like...you know...

HW: Yeah, there's a way of doing things that, in terms of a legal point of view, isn't going to do that anyway. We can still get our message across in a peaceful way. We are aggressive in our personas on stage sometimes, but we're also very... There's a lot of feminine energy as well that we bring to the stage. And it's very important to be reminding people of the fact that we're not just doing this to spread anger. It's not just about spreading anger. Obviously, if you want to get in a mosh pit and go crazy, respect to you. You get your emotions out. You get that that energy out of you. That's what it's there to do. But it isn't just there for that. It's not just about being aggressive. It's also about embracing love. And there has to come a point where we have to be... The whole point of generational growth is passing the torch. We have to be better than the last generation. We have to do what's right for each other. And that only comes by unifying people more. And I think that music is one of the only mediums left that can actually do that in this world, to be honest.

Music and love, that they feel like the only things left that are deeply spiritual. And through those mediums, we can inspire that change in people. I've always thought that music can change the world, and it has done in the past, and it will continue to do. It's about that ripple effect. It doesn't matter if it inspires 20 people or 2 billion people as long as you're making that ripple effect, that is what is important. And that comes with responsibility. We can't just keep on blaming everybody else and the world. We talk about it in the lyrics like "They look down on us," but it's also about taking control. The second half is about taking the self-belief back, taking that self-empowerment back into yourself and believing that you are powerful enough to make a difference. Because then when we have that, that's when we can actually make a change. But first, we need to inspire that change in people. We need to inspire that self-belief, that positivity in people to have that ripple effect.

Alright. Maruja, I appreciate you taking the time and talking to me and letting me know about the songs, the record, just everything going on with the band.

Maruja: Yeah, thank you so much, man.

And again, thank you for the opportunity. First US interview. Huge.

JC: Of course. We've literally been watching you for 15 years.

So you're saying, "Biggest influence on the new album: Anthony Fantano." Is that what you're saying?

JC: Yeah, right up there.

We're confirming that right here. Okay. Good to know. Alright. Thank you guys very much! Have a good one.

Maruja: Cheers, thank you!