Let's get the formal intro out of the way, and then we will let it rip.

Hey, everyone. Anthony Fantano here, Internet's busiest music nerd. Hope you are doing well. It's time for an exclusive conversation, fresh off the release of their latest full-length LP, Revengeseekerz. We have Jane Remover with us. We're going to talk about the new LP and anything else that comes up in the conversation.

Anthony: Jane, thank you for taking the time.

Jane: Of course. Of course, I'll always make time.

Anthony: It's been a minute.

Jane: That's true. I think the last time I talked to you, other than that time I met you last summer, last time I talked to you was probably three years ago or some shit.

Anthony: Yeah. I mean, totally different era. Was I one of your first interviews? How many interviews had you done that point, around the time when frailty was popping off?

Jane: I don't know. You were definitely one of my first interviews.

Anthony: Yeah, that was definitely a funny connection that we had at that point. You still bumping that self-titled Zendaya record?

Jane: I got to get back on my shit, but I still like it as much as I did before.

Anthony: Good. That's good that you're staying yourself through all the changes, through all the everything. It's like you were Zendaya Stan then, and you're still true to yourself at this point. You're still riding with Zendaya.

Jane: Of course. How could I not?

Anthony: And still waiting for the eventual – I'm waiting for the follow-up. And with your profile growing in the way that it has, you're getting close to a time when maybe you could hit her up and be like, 'Hey, would you want to collab? Would you do a feature?' Or something like that.

Jane: No, but she's too busy acting.

Anthony: If you had a really clear idea in mind of what you wanted and you just approached her and just threw her her way, you should throw it down in the studio and just... She's probably still got the singing chops.

Jane: No, yeah. I don't know if you've seen Euphoria, but she was singing in the first season.

Anthony: Right. So she still got it. Just come through with a clear reference, and she'll just lay it down in 15 minutes. It'll be done. I'm just throwing it out there as a possibility.

Jane: No, exactly.

Anthony: But yeah, the new record is out. Obviously, it's quite different from everything else you've released up until this point, especially coming off of that new Venturing project that was quite rock-oriented and lofi and everything like that. How do you feel, for you, has the reception been so far, and did it match your expectations?

Jane: For what? The Venturing or the Revengeseekerz?

Anthony: The Revengeseekerz.

Jane: I don't know. Honestly, I didn't really expect anything. Honestly, because it's not that I don't look at it. It's not that I don't look at comments or I don't look at streams, but I just don't have any expectations anymore because I'm just like, I got what I wanted out of this, which is just to live off of it. So now I'm just like, let's see where this goes. But I guess, to be honest, I am overwhelmed by how much this is all been. This moment is looking huge as fuck, to me, at least.

Anthony: No, I'd like to jump into that as an idea, because I do think it is a theme that comes up pretty regularly in your music. To jump right into it, I mean, do you feel like living off of what you do and just doing it, the act of creating music and producing music, is in and of itself the gift of what you do? If you could do what you're doing right now, but subtract out of it entirely the fame and attention that comes with it, would you do that?

Jane: Maybe, because I do like attention. I do like attention. Right.

Anthony: Well, I was going I was going to say, there are moments where it seems like you're a bit skeptical of the attention that's on you. But simultaneously, there are also moments on this album where you're singing about people saying your name and so on and so forth, where you're almost reveling in it. Do you feel like that's a struggle finding balance between those two feelings for you and yourself at this point in your career?

Jane: No, yeah. I think it also has to do with the attention that comes from being in this part of the music world. It's so internet-based, so the fans are all really internet-y. And it's like, obviously, you feel the love when you go to the shows, and it's like, this is actually real. But then it's like, you can go online and it's like, oh, my God, this is crazy. You know what I mean?

Anthony: Yeah. No. And I get exactly what you're saying. And I feel like everyone in chat does as well. But if you could, I don't know, put into words from your own perspective as somebody who's having this experience themselves. To you, what separates the idea of an artist who's more existing or more popular in the realm of music that you are, where it's defined as like, Oh, this is more internet-y, this is more internet, as opposed to, I don't know, Sabrina Carpenter, who we were talking about for a hot second before we hopped online.

Jane: We were just talking about, yeah.

Anthony: I think that's an artist who I think a lot of people would agree. Yeah, that's a real artist with a real IRL following and so on and so forth. But I don't know. When we met last summer, that was just after a JPEGMAFIA show. And while obviously, he draws a crowd of a certain size, who know all the words to his songs and so on and so forth. The people who were there were going just as hard for your set, too, knew most of the words to most of the songs.

Jane: No, yeah, that was crazy.

Anthony: That's just as much a reflection of real-life engagement as going to a Sabrina Carpenter show, and everybody knows the words there. So aside from just audience size, what do you feel it categorizes you as an artist who's like, 'Oh, this is just internet.' It's very internet-y. My fan base is very online.

Jane: Well, I mean, I feel like if you asked me this a year and a half ago, I would have dodged this question or said something different, but it's like, the music does sound online. You know what I mean? The sample usage, it's inaccessible. Or it's inaccessible to a degree because it's like, at least for revenge, it's really catchy. It's just as catchy as it is inaccessible. So I guess that's the middle ground, but I don't know. I think also just maybe the branding of it. I don't know. None of this is a deterrent for me. Shit, I don't mind. I would have mined in probably a year and a half ago because I just didn't know. You know what I mean? Or I feel like there's a middle ground between trying to evolve past the Internet, but still keeping true to yourself. Because also, why would I lie? I grew up on the Internet.

Anthony: Right. You feel culturally like you're a product of

Jane: No, exactly.

Anthony: There's a couple of different directions off of that that we can go into. Do you mind, and you could say no to this, or I'll dance around specifics here, but do you mind if I press you on specifically some of the samples on this record? I don't know if that's a taboo for personal or business reasons.

Jane: I don't think any of it is copyrighted, so I guess so.

Anthony: Okay. Yeah. I just wanted to, I guess, get into some of those reference points because I found the ways that you were approaching sampling on this record really interesting. I mean, I come from an era where a lot of the sampling that I was used to was based mostly in hip hop and electronic music, and a lot of those samples were done of very popular songs and artists that were super well-established and that thing. But I mean, a great deal the samples on this record not only come from your previous material. I mean, you could even call them interpellations in a sense. But there's just a lot of samples coming from either niche online culture or video games. And I guess I wanted to see if there was any draw to that stuff for you that makes you put this in your music because you feel, I guess, a personal or a thematic connection to it, or if you feel like it's just a good sound. For example, I know on one track, the lead single to the record, you were using the Palkia cry from Pokémon, if that is in fact the case. And I just wanted to know what exactly drew you to that? I imagine gaming is where you probably first heard that. And what makes you come back around on it at another part of your life where you're producing music and you're like, 'I got to throw that into a song?'

Jane: Well, okay. So it's not really as intentional as it of sounds because it's like, yeah, I did play these games growing up, and they do inspire me to a degree. But I just have a sound bank on my computer where I was just browsing through all the whatever sounded good. Like, low-key, the Palkia cry is one of the more percussive, metallic-sounding ones, I guess. So I was like, 'Oh, let me use this as a perc or an impact or something. Coincidentally, it's like, yes, this is from one of my favorite franchises. You know what I mean? But I didn't really think about it like that. But I think, like "JRJRJR" Was the second time I used that in a song. And then I went a little bit ham and just put it... It's on every song on the album except for one or two. But it's lost its meaning to me. It's just a cool sound now.

Anthony: Oh, yeah. You're just hearing it so many times out of that context. In terms of frame of reference and time period here, what is your process? What state are you in when you're in a place where you hear something like that and it's like, oh, I need to just throw that in the sound bank? Are you just scanning through things that you like or through the Internet, just finding random sounds and then putting them into a folder, putting them into a bank, and then coming back to it later at some point when you're not in that mindset and just picking out things and be like, oh, that sounds cool. That sounds cool, that sounds cool. Just grabbing things that I saved or archived for later?

Jane: Yeah. For the most part, it's games that I played, but sometimes I go over to a friend's house and they're playing a game, and I will be like, I like the sounds on this game. What's it called? And then I'll go on that sounds resource website.

Anthony: Got it.

Jane: I think that's the only non-musical samples on the album, though, because the rest of it, honestly, it's just me sampling myself. It's not even copyrighted shit.

Anthony: Yeah. No, for sure. You Just before we get into a little bit of that, though, I wanted to ask probably a basic bitch question, but at this point, and I'm sure it changes sometimes, but favorite Pokémon at the moment? Preferred Pokémon that you're really into?

Jane: I like Ampharos. I feel like I might have said that on one of my streams before, but I don't know. I have so many favorites. I got like, Piplup on the back of my phone case right now. Okay. But I like Metagros. Metagros is fine.

Anthony: Yes. Metagros.

Jane: Wait, what's your favorite?

Anthony: Journey Together has a good Metagros card that just came out. I'm partial to Ironhands recently, currently. A lot of the future Pokémon, iron leaves, that thing. I also like the Blaziken card they came out with recently, and the new Zacian. I like Zacian.

Jane: So you're into the cards? Okay.

Anthony: I'm into the cards. Archaludon, I think, as far as older Pokémon, because I remember the original 150 that I really liked, Gyarados, Onix, Slowpoke, those are the ones that I vibe with.

Jane: What's your favorite starter?

Anthony: I think it was always Squirtle. I always started with Squirtle. I liked starting with the water Pokémon.

Jane: So you like Blastoise?

Anthony: Blastoise, yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Jane: No, you get it.

Anthony: That was my vibe. Going into some of the samples you do of yourself, though. One that most definitely stuck out to me was on "Star People", where I believe you pull a guitar part from "Famous Girl". Is that the case? Is that a similar guitar part or something like it?

Jane: I've been seeing that, but it's-

Anthony: Or is it just similar sounding?

Jane: It's just similar sounding because it's all unique playing. I'm not taking any stems or anything, but it's like-

Anthony: Got it.

Jane: It sounds similar, though, because it's like a little descending thing.

Anthony: Yeah. Well, I think the samples of your own work present an interesting dichotomy because I feel like given all of the radical change that people have seen within you personally and as an artist since the Frailty era. Then also knowing on top of that, you have all of these other music projects that you're also borrowing from and balancing at the same time, and you're presenting them in a way to your fans as like, these are different sides of me or different modes of my creative process. And in a weird way on this record, it's all coming together in these different samples and references and chunks and bits like that. And I guess I wanted to know from your own perspective with a record like this being created in the way that it is, do you feel like you want your fans to see all of these projects and all of these albums as vastly different expressions from your creative of mind, or is it all a network and it's all connected, and it's all a part of, I guess, a community of works that all are maybe sister albums or cousin albums or something like that.

Jane: Honestly, I never thought that far. I've let fans draw their conclusions because honestly, it's not that I don't care, it's just I genuinely didn't think that far. I saw one comment that was, Frailty, Census, and Revenge are a trilogy in the where it's, Frailte is outside the house, and then the sense it's just like the house is dilapidated, and then revenge is like, inside the house. It's like, Girl, I'm not inside the house. But I like the thinking. But I like the... I will say my fans have vivid imaginations of their own. So I'm like, I like how creative you guys are. I don't really care.

Anthony: So we're not doing any house concepts here, is what you're saying?

Jane: No, not really. It's just vibes. It's just vibes.

Anthony: Hey, and that's valid. That's totally valid. Off of that, though, is there any symbolism or worth noting in terms of what you're trying to convey or what is being conveyed record to record between an album like Census Designated in the cover there and the cover here? Because obviously this record and the promo photos behind it and everything like that, you've got all the flames going. You've got the flame sword. You look like a badass fucking character from an action movie who's maybe got some pyro magic going on. What exactly is the analogy there for you with this record? Is it just a visual that's supposed to match the energy of the music, or is it something deeper than that?

Jane: Honestly, it was just what I imagined when I was making it the same way. It doesn't really – I don't have any relation to what I've done in the past. I was just like, this is what I picture when I make this music. Even with the cover art, I was just like, yeah, there needs to be me and a sword and fire in some capacity. And then my friend, Brendan, who did all the photography for the album, he was like, 'Say less.' So it was a collaborative effort.

Anthony: Were there any close calls or anything with the proximity to the flames and just the process and getting the flames going and posing with the sword or anything, or getting it going?

Jane: Oh, yeah. No. I brought my hair to a crisp, low key. It's good now because my hair is like... That was three months ago, I shot the album cover. So it was like, it's okay now. Okay.

Anthony: So, yeah, you're totally back on your usual shit hair-wise then.

Jane: Yeah.

Anthony: Okay. So to dig back into the samples and references a little bit more, And maybe it's not in the sense that there is a trilogy going on here per se. But when you're going over maybe older pieces of your work, be it a musical piece or obviously an altered version of an older producer tag, something like that, and putting it into something that you're doing, are you going over these chunks and bits in the same way that you might random sounds that you're collecting? Or when you grab these pieces, is there an intentional narrative behind it, especially considering there are recurring themes on this record that people might catch on previous records, even though the sound is very different because we see you again, exploring and meditating on your own fame and the point of life where you're at and stuff like that. When you're making these or creating these sample and musical references, too, are you also calling back to that in a way as well, or is it just mostly a sonic tingle that you're getting from these ideas when you reuse them?

Jane: I guess it's both because this album, it's a reflection of everything that's everything I've done up until this point. So I guess, not coincidentally, but by proxy, I guess. This is like, I'm sampling this because it has meaning to it and it's like, the fans will recognize it. It's not really like that. It's just like, I was sitting on so much unreleased music from last year because Revengeseekerz was my third attempt at making a third album. So I just had so much other shit to sample. That was my own work. And I was like, I'm not going to get in trouble with publishing or anything because it's like, this is my music I'm sampling. So it was my little cheat code in a way.

Anthony: Oh, you got it. Okay. Yeah.

Jane: Because honestly, I love all those ideas that I still had. I just didn't want to out because the song itself is not good enough, but it's like, I'll take a little four bar instance of the song. Honestly, it's put through shitty filters, too. So it's like, nobody could even tell it's me at low key. The "Angels in Camo" sample at the end, it's a sample of me, but it's been through so much shit.

Anthony: You're saying it's a creative endeavor, but simultaneously, this is also a way for you to save yourself a headache and avoiding legal troubles in a way.

Jane: Subconsciously, yeah.

Anthony: This record, you're referring to it in a way to where it is super catchy to a certain ear, and it is obviously much more, let's say, hook-driven than maybe your last couple of projects. But simultaneously, it is overloaded in such a way to where it is very abrasive and it is really overwhelming. I guess, was it your direction, your intention from the beginning to make a record that was hitting more in one way or more the other? Were you like, I want to make the most wild, out there, most layered, most overwhelming album I ever put out, or were you gearing more toward, I'm going to make my catchiest album, make my hookiest album, make my most pop-centric album?

Jane: Honestly, it was neither because my second attempt at the third album was honestly a combination of both. It was both my most hook-driven and my most accessible. And I reused half, if not most, of the ideas from that album on here. But I was like, creatively, this album, Revengeseekerz, I just shut my brain off. I was on autopilot the entire time. So I was just like, 'Here's my album.' And then I blink, and it's like, 'Oh, the song is done. And it sounds like this.'

Anthony: When you say autopilot, were you second-guessing yourself too much and getting in your own way, or was there something else making the process slower that you needed to lock in on?

Jane: I think, yeah, because – or at least with Census, I was sitting on these songs for so long, and then all the songs on Revengeseekerz are either one or two studio sessions. So I think the fact that I wasn't thinking as much about it made me more confident in it. I think that helped me in the long run because it's like, of course, I'm listening to these songs a lot, or not so much now because it's out. But it's like, when I was making this album, I was listening to it all day, every day. But I wasn't trying to figure out how to change it or how to fix it or anything. I was listening to it as if somebody else had made it. Because honestly, when the album was done and I was listening to it after we had already submitted it to stores, and I was like, this doesn't sound like... Not that it doesn't sound like I made it, but it's like the music almost sounded like foreign to me. Because I guess I was just like, not like because I guess autopilot is not the wrong word to use, but I was just so, for lack of better terms, locked in on making it. I was just like, oh. And then one day the album is done and I listened to it, and it's exactly how I thought it would be, how I thought it would be from the start. But it was also, How did we get here? Because it was so fast. I don't know. So much, so much, but so little. It's a little...

Anthony: No, it's interesting to hear you put it in that way, I guess, because with it sounding foreign to you, and maybe to other listeners that might come across that way if maybe their familiarity with you is like, maybe they just came into your music this year and the only other record they've heard is Census, or maybe it's the venturing record that came out a little while ago. And then to transition over to this, it's this wildly different world sonically and lyrically, too. And I wanted to ask you about one of the major contrasts with this record, with your previous stuff. And I feel like on some level, that is the words. And I wanted to know if you feel like you put on a different mindset or voice when you're writing songs for a project like venturing or even with your last record census designated, as opposed to here when you're coming up with lines that are maybe a little bit more braggadocious when you're saying stuff like, "Jesus never had it with a freak bitch." I feel like within the context of Venturing, that's not necessarily a line that you would drop quite in that fashion. What headspace do you put yourself in for a project like this where you're like... Lyrically, it's going this way because it seems so vastly different from what you've recently written and released.

Jane: Yeah. Partially, I wanted to troll a little bit with the lyrics. Not in the – It's just a sense where it's like, oh, I think this is funny, and I think people will laugh. I think it's just like, I think this is hard, and it would also be like, How funny would this be to have a sea of people say it back to me? You know what I mean? I was saying this to my manager. It was like a zestiness quota for the album. I was like, Every song needs to have a zesty bar on the... I guess it's on. It does pull you away. It was like, 'Oh, why did they say that?'

Anthony: Yeah. I mean, hearing that back in your own music or reading it or even hearing people react to it or me say it, does it feel like an out-of-body moment? You're like, That doesn't even feel like me who said that.

Jane: I mean, it is a little a little bit embarrassing, but it's not embarrassing, but it's like, I can't help but laugh. You know what I mean?

Anthony: Right. No, it is funny. It is funny. It is wild that it is over the top. And obviously, the energy there is intentional. And when you take it in context with everything else that you're saying on the record. And yeah, when you look at it that way, there is a bit of a spicy bar quota in terms of there being a certain level of wild shit that you're willing to say or confrontational stuff. I guess I just wanted to know is going into a track like this, outside of a zesty bar quota, do you feel like you're putting on a different, I don't know, personality or emotional rubric at all to put yourself in the space where you're like, I don't know, a line like, "Jesus never had it with a freak bitch" even pops up in your head?

Jane: I don't know. Not really. Because I think the difference between my older music and this album is all the other previous albums are seeking approval or just craving approval. And it's like, now I not necessarily don't want the approval. Not that I don't have the approval, but it was just my mind is not For the most part, I'm not seeking validation or approval from anybody else now, especially because even when I was making this album and I was mixing it, I was telling my manager, Like, your input is appreciated and is valid, but I'm not going to listen to you. I literally... This was the first time around. I didn't ask anybody any questions, and then nobody asked me any questions regarding this album. I just like, I made it, and then I sent it, and I was like, 'Hey, here's the album. Let's put it out.'

Anthony: So in the process of making this or maybe the couple of previous iterations of your third record, were you getting instances of feedback along whatever lines that you felt like weren't helpful, or for this project, going into it, did you already have that energy where you're like, I'm just going to make this. I don't want to hear what anybody's saying. I need to shut out all outside opinions to make this.

Jane: No, it was like that, especially because... And this is unrelated, but it is just in the chain remover type timeline. I made this album immediately after I came back from the JPEG tour, and then I finished it probably a month and a half ago at this point.

Anthony: One other question that I had in terms of the mode that you're in creatively with this record, and your previous projects, too, which obviously have their own different directions and flavors and musical palettes. When you're going from project to project, especially with the musical inspirations going into it being so different, does your musical diet change at all along the lines with your creative process? In the lead up to a project like this, maybe it's a bit too obvious to say, but are you finding yourself listening to more pop and hip hop and hard style and stuff like that going into a record like this? Or when you're making a venturing album, are you listening to more lofi indie rock, or do you just have this stuff ingrained into you as a music fan, and you just have this idea for a certain direction in your head and you just go for it?

Jane: This is going to sound so bad. When I'm making an album, it's the only thing I listen to is that album, is the album. Yeah. But when I wasn't making music, honestly, I don't know. Last year, last summer, there was low-key a Luther Vandross summer for me. So I was listening to a lot of Luther Vandross. I started listening to more Dijon than usual.

Anthony: Than usual?

Jane: Than usual, because I love Dijon. But now I just listen to it more. I'm trying to think. Because I got my Wrapped back and I was like, my top songs. Because it is just my top genre every year is usually just pop. Or it'll be pop, rap, electronic. Every single year, it's the same, honestly. But I think my top song last year on my Wrapped was Miranda Cosgrove, "Oh Oh", if you know that one. It samples the song "Dilemma" by Nelly. That one?

Anthony: Oh, it samples that part? Yeah. Okay.

Jane: It's low-key genius. I was putting all my friends onto it, but that was my top song last year. And I still love that song.

Anthony: Yeah. Someone in chat just said you're a visionary. I don't entirely disagree. Finding inspiration in the most unexpected places. There's another line, and maybe this is a part of the zestiness and just the energy that you're trying to maintain on a project like this. There's at least a bar or two that stands out where you make a bold proclamation about people biting your sound. Not asking you to call anybody out, but I wanted to verify-

Jane: Wait, let me start beef.

Anthony: Okay. Oh, shit.

Jane: No, I'm not. I'm just joking.

Anthony: No, I feel like with without starting beef, I guess I wanted to know if, in fact, you do feel like that is the case, and in your own opinion, what do you feel like that sound is, and what do you feel ideas be in the underground, the mainstream, be it on more recent works or even going back to frailty, that you feel like you help popularize that you now hear there out and about in the Ether now, and you're listening to music around, maybe in the internet space?

Jane: I think, honestly, I think Dariacore is more influential than anything. And I think it's partially because I've done an around the world with music. Obviously, I haven't hit all the – I haven't made my metal album yet, but I want to... But I think partially, since this is a return to the Dariacore sound and the digicore, even pre-Frailty stuff, this is a return to that. I think it's just like, since I've done so many different things, it's like people forgot that this is where I started. So That's why when I first dropped like, "JRJRJR", people were like, 'This is just derivative. This is just biting.' And it's like, 'Oh, this is how I know you weren't there.' But I see it most with Dariacore. So just the sporadic EDM and the percussion. But I do also see it in the early digicore shit because that's making a comeback. Okay. I don't know. I don't think... Obviously, there are people who are inspired by Frailty and Census, but it's normally... I don't see it as popular as the Dariacore inspiration shit.

Anthony: It does seem like you are not in a derivative way, but it does seem like in a way, though, you are trying to, with the production on this album, stay conscious of a lot of modern trends in pop and hip hop, just outside of whether or not you may be connected to it through your early work in some way. Is there a certain level of intent here in terms of, I want to gravitate toward this because this is a prevailing sound, and I think I could put an interesting spin on it or maybe hook some listeners who wouldn't have maybe considered me otherwise for maybe one of my more rock-oriented records or something like that? Do you see this as an album that could potentially be a gateway to what you do, given that there are some trendier ideas on it?

Jane: Like, maybe because I feel like I didn't have a jerk song before "Star People", but then it's also like it's a jerk song with like 30 second, like one 30 second hi-hats. You know what I mean?

Anthony: Right.

Jane: So it's definitely not like a typical jerk song, but it's still a jerk song that I didn't have in my discovery before because it's like, yeah, this is a return to what I was doing four and a half years ago at this point. But it's like, the underground has changed so much in the past four and a half years. If I straight up go back to doing what I was doing, it's just going to sound washed and dated. But I think also it's just like, I don't know, not to be like, I'm different. I'm built different, but I don't know. I feel like just subconsciously, I was like, I just did it different. I don't know.

Anthony: Where do you even feel – as somebody who's obviously in their own way, conscious of it and a product of it – where do you feel like the underground is even at anymore? Because I feel like between the platforms that people are usually consuming their music on these days and the way a lot of underground music scales currently on the internet and just the way social media works at the moment, it just feels like whatever is an underground has been eliminated at this point. It's all in the same pen, whether you want it to be or not, whether it's something mainstream, whether it's something more obscure. Do you even feel like there is a barrier between the underground and the mainstream at this point? What even defines underground at the moment for you?

Jane: I don't know, honestly, because I agree with you that the line between underground and mainstream is getting more blurred by the day because if you have two million monthly listeners and people are still calling you I remember three years ago or something, when Yeat had 10 million monthly listeners and people were like, He's still underground. Is he the most famous out of the underground? And it's like, I guess. I don't know. Did people call... It's like, you got to ask yourself, when... And this might not be the best example, but this is just something that I can think of because it's like, at the peak of XXXTentacion's fame, did people call them underground, yes or no? And honestly, I don't remember, because that was so long ago, but it's like, I guess that's one way to- I feel like at that point, people weren't quite using the term in the same way that they are now.

Anthony: I mean, I've seen a lot of younger people talk about some of these rappers that they refer to as underground with 2 million monthly listeners being the cutoff. And once you go past that point, you're not a part of the underground anymore. But I mean, I listen to rappers that way more monthly listeners than that. And to me, the two million monthly listener line feels like such an arbitrary cutoff.

Jane: No, yeah, especially because how digital everything is now. Yeah, that's two million people, but it's not like 2 million people that are all going to come see you play. You know what I mean?

Anthony: There are people who have 11 million monthly Spotify listeners that can't sell out a tour. So there's also that.

Jane: No, Yeah. I hate to bring up numbers, but it's like... You know what I mean? That was just my way of saying, what is the underground? What even is underground anymore? Because you're right. Numbers don't really say anything, but it's like...

Anthony: With these references to older stuff and your creative process leading up to this album, I wanted to ask, and I know there are some fans curious, especially with I know you've recently released singles like "Magic", for example, that a lot of your listeners really love. Is there in the works potentially a record coming out of songs that hit in that direction? Was that track a part of other material that might have been released at some point before you decided to change your mind? What were maybe these previous attempts at making this third album looking like that made you decide to scrap them?

Jane: Well, okay. Because the album that... Songs like "Magic" and "Flash the Pan", the album that those tracks are on, I think when people hear that I scrapped it, they're like, 'Oh, well, it's deleted and I can't get it back.' It's like, no, these files are sitting pretty on my phone. I still listen to them all the time. Me and my friends, we all have really good memories regarding this because I was making this last summer, and a couple of my friends had access to it, and we were just talking about it all the time. It was like, this is the Chicago summer album. And I was like, I don't know. I still like all those songs a lot. I just feel like now is not the right time for me to put it out. So I'll probably finish it and put it out. It's just like, I just don't want to do it right now.

Anthony: Do you feel like that's to do with your or the time period or where you feel like fans might receive it in your discography? Because you said this album fits within a certain context of your music. And earlier you were saying, and maybe at some point I'll come out with my metal album. Is there something to your intention here that's like, I want to keep people on their toes. And if I put out a record like this right now, it wouldn't surprise people in the way maybe I want it to?

Jane: Yeah. Because "Flash the Pan" was like, that was the first song I put out after Census . So that was already a shift in sound. But honestly, part of me just wanted to troll and not put it out and just be like, 'Hey, here's a digicore album instead. But the other part of me was just like... It was a gut feeling, honestly, because that scrapped album is like, it's not done at all. If I were to put it out, I would want to do a redo of pretty much everything, but keep the ideas and the structure. But I think, honestly, I just wanted to keep them on their toes, especially because it was like, if I put out that album instead of Revengeseekerz, I think, not that it wouldn't have been received as well, but I think it's not as divisive at all. I think this album is divisive, and it's me and my little... Not to be a pop star attitude or anything, but it's like, this will get people talking. And it's like, teah, the scrapped album, it's really good, and I love it a lot, and it would probably do just as well, if not better, if I put it out. But it's just like, people wouldn't be talking like that. People would just be like, look at this collection of cute little songs. Wow. My summer. There's a time and place for that, but it's not right now.

Anthony: Fair. One of the things that people are talking about the most on this record, and one of the things that could be seen as polarizing about it is the production. Digicore stuff like this. Digicore stuff like this, I wouldn't say I'm super intimately familiar with the creative process. I wanted to ask you, and you talked about the process of creating and recording this album being done in a very quick fashion. Does that also encompass the time taken to produce these very intense instrumentals on this record? Because it seems like, at least from an outsider perspective, that there's just so much going on in terms of the amount of sounds on any given song. Again, presuming the process, what is the multi-track looking like on a track like this? Are there 60 layers on top of each other and it's all just firing on all cylinders all at once? Or is there more of a more of a methodology to it where you're carefully placing in each piece in a puzzle so that there's balance there?

Jane: I think it's a little bit of both because some of these songs, "Turn Up or Die", has probably 100, 105 stems, probably. I didn't want to guess that level, but it does sound like it. But I think because I really was insistent on mixing this album, that I was like, I have to get it right because I can't hand this album to somebody else. It has to be how I want it to sound. I think partially, I've just been teaching myself how to mix over the years, and I was mixing for my friends early on. But I think an album, I guess, for lack of a better words, complex, I feel like nobody else can touch it except for me. That's why it's like, there's the only collaboration on this album in any aspect is Danny's feature and it's literally because I texted him and I was like, "Do you want to be on my song?" And he was like, "Yeah, send it over."

Anthony: Were there any challenges or learning experiences, some new knowledge that was gained in the process of making this album because of how particular you probably had to be through the mixing process? You're talking about assembling together a lot of different sounds that a lot of producers probably wouldn't conceive of putting together in most normal music contexts. And yet you're in this very experimental, very abrasive album, trying to have to figure out on the fly. There's no handbook for this shit, I imagine. You have to figure it on the fly. How do I make all of this make sense? How do I make it so noisy? I think this is a testament to how well you mixed it. As chaotic as it is, I feel like I could pick out every sound. It doesn't just sound like a big blob. I feel like I can make out a vast majority of the sounds separately that you're putting together on this, again, very chaotic album. And I guess I wanted to know to what do you attribute your ability to do that? Because it doesn't just sound like pure chaos. There is layers and details, and it does feel like things are placed carefully a lot of the time.

Jane: I don't know what it's called because my manager calls it gain staging, I guess, with just adjusting the volume. But it's like, I don't know. I don't know any of the terms for anything. This is why I still use FL. I I still have the same set up as I did in the '90s.

Anthony: You're doing all this in FL?

Jane: What?! Why do you say it like that?

Anthony: It's not embarrassing. It's impressive. That's all I'm saying.

Jane: Oh, thank you. No. Yeah, because I just never taught myself anything else. I have Ableton, and I know how to use it, but I don't trust myself to make a full album in Ableton. You know what I mean?

Anthony: You work with what you're comfortable in.

Jane: I know. It's just like...

Anthony: If you have ideas in your head and through the tool you're using, you feel like you can actually execute them and it's coming out the way that you intend, it doesn't matter if it's FL.

Jane:But no, low key hardware-wise, it is a nightmare because FL is not the best with handling such big project files.

Anthony: You're giving yourself a learning curve on purpose.

Jane: Yeah. That's me editing my videos in Sony Vegas.

Anthony: That's the first video program I ever did a YouTube video in.

Jane: Really? When were you using Vegas?

Anthony: In the late 2000s.

Jane: That's crazy. I've been using Vegas probably for 10 years at this point, because I know how to use Adobe Premiere, but again, I like Vegas more. I know how to use Vegas more, so I just use it. I'm too stubborn.

Anthony: Final CutI really hated moving from Vegas to final cut when I did eventually make that transition. But yeah, I did miss just using it. There's something to sticking with whatever program you originally learned on. There's a familiarity there, you don't want to fuck up your creative flow by having to learn something new.

Jane: No, yeah. I think the only times I have used Ableton, honestly, is just for the live show, because it's easier to just send it out to the sound people. But other than that, I'm an FL soldier all the way. I think mixing this album in FL definitely... Because this album is already... The mixing is really unorthodox. And it's very sweet that you think it's good. But I think, honestly, it's just, again, not much thought put into it. It was just, what do they call it? Flow state? This is just flow state, I guess.

Anthony: Just flow state creativity. I get it. Which you need for FL Studio. I understand. Aside from touring behind this music that you've just put out, are there any other big musical or release plans that you have this year? I know you tend to be very prolific, always recording, always creating.

Jane: That is a good question, because honestly, I don't know. Because I already have so many ideas for the future, but I don't know if I'm going to act upon it because I remember when I came home from tour and I was like, I'm going to take a break. And then I didn't take a break and I was like, 'Oh, let me make two albums in five months.' So it was definitely not that. Because I think since this album has been turned in and it's come out, it's like yeah, I'm still doing music, but I'm not working on anything new. I think it's just like, I just do music for fun. I have no clue. I have no plans, honestly. But I'm so excited to play this live because the one thought that I did have making this album, I was like, this album has to go crazy live. So we'll see because I think the first-

Anthony: You have multiple lines turning up on the record. I would hope so.

Jane: Turning up and dying. But hopefully, don't die at my show because it's not cute.

Anthony: Right. Yeah. No, that would put a damper on things.

Jane: Yeah. But I don't know. I mean, we'll see. I think, honestly, the first show that I'm playing these songs is in a week. So we'll see.

Anthony: Okay. Well, we're looking forward to that. We're looking forward to the forthcoming pop album and metal album. Maybe a combination of both. A double LP, metal pop double LP.

Jane: Maybe. I don't know. I feel like... I don't know. I'll leave that to Poppy, not me.

Anthony: Yeah.

Jane: Bro, I fucking love Popy.

Anthony: The new song with Babymetal is really good.

Jane: I haven't heard that one yet, but I remember when I first moved out here, I think the week I moved out here, I saw Poppy, and it was one of the first shows that – not the first shows that I've been to, but it's just one of the first shows I went to here, and I was like, oh, core memory. But I love Poppy so much. I've been a fan of her for 10 years at this point.

Anthony: Yeah. Now she's been doing what she's doing for a while. I mean, she's really ingrained into the metal world at this point.

Jane: It's crazy to watch her from the start to now.

Anthony: No, it's true. And you as well.

Jane: Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'm on year four of this.

Anthony: There's still time. You're still doing your thing. Jane-

Jane: This is true.

Anthony: Thank you for coming through. Thank you for talking about the world.

Jane: Yeah, as always.

Anthony: Thank you for letting me into the creative process. And thank you for coming back around. You could have been like, Oh, Fantano. I did that interview way back when. I don't need to do that again.

Jane: No, low key I wanted to do another one because I was like... Because even the last one, I was in my college dorm, the lights were off. Not a good look.

Anthony: It was a totally different time, period. Also, pandemic era. It was crazy.

Jane: Yeah. That was a time.

Anthony: It was a time. All right. You're the best. Thank you again. And maybe I'll see you at one of these dates. So we'll see.

Jane: Yes. Wait, come.

Anthony: I know everyone in the chat is going to try to come through.

Jane: Oh, yeah. And then they're going to be like, Anthony Fantano spotted in public?

Anthony: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Jane: Come.

Anthony: Yeah. No, I should. All right. Okay. Have a good rest of your day.

Jane: Yes. You too.

Anthony: And I'll talk to you later.

Jane: Okay.

Anthony: All right. Bye.

Jane: Bye.