Anthony: Hey everyone, Anthony Fantano here, Internet's busiest music nerd. Hope you're doing well. Today we have an exciting and exclusive conversation that I've been dying to dive into for a minute. That would be one with singer, songwriter, producer, multi-instrumentalist, Ms. Chelsea Wolfe. She has a new record out titled, She Reaches Out to She Reaches Out to She, which I gave a very glowing review much earlier this year. It's an album that I've been wanting to kind of peel back the layers on in a conversation for a minute now just because it is such a curious and interesting record for Chelsea. I'm just excited to get into this album and learn more about it, and just everything else that you've been doing, all the other projects you have orbiting around this record. Because you've really been active in the last several years with the X soundtrack and not too long ago, what you're doing with Converge, with Blood Moon. And it seems like you still have a lot going on now into the near future with the stuff that you're doing right now.

Chelsea: Yeah, definitely been staying busy, putting on a lot of work, but yeah, it's been fun. Doing the different incarnations of this record was a treat actually to get to do.

Anthony: Yeah, that's the other thing. You had kind of like this unbound version or different remixes and kind of stripped back versions of these songs, which I think showcases, I don't want to say both sides of your writing process and what you do, but it definitely brings a new dynamic. And I think if you've proven anything over the past decade-plus of output, it's how dynamic of an artist you are. I mean, even just comparing this to your past couple of records, one of which was more metal geared, one of which was more kind of like folky and acoustic. And this one, kind of going back to more of an electronic direction if you could even define it as that, to dive into the writing and creative process for a record like this that is so esthetically different from your past few. Where exactly do songs like these start budding? Do they start in a state that sounds like what you were showing us on that recent EP where they're stripped back or you start more with like the textures and the electronics and the raw sounds that we're hearing in the finished product?

Chelsea: Right. Actually, most of them started more full band. I mean, I guess. I don't know, it's very varied. But after my last album, Birth of Violence, I wanted to do an album that was where the bandmates and I would get into a room together and work on stuff. Obviously, because of COVID that didn't get to happen so much. So we ended up just sending ideas back and forth like everyone else was doing, and then, you know, collaging everything together. And then once I actually got to get into a studio with Dave S. who was the official producer of the album, that's when they turned more electronic. So I think before that they were much more like rock and roll. And for a while, I was kind of looking for like a more rock-leaning producer. And I had a short list of people I wanted to work with. And when I met with Dave Siddick, I don't know, he wanted to bring out like the weirdness and the songs and make them less traditional or something. And being in his studio and seeing like his wall of modular synths and just kind of like it felt like you're inside like this robot or something. It was kind of exciting to me. And I felt like ready after sitting with the songs for so long too, let them transform into something new. So, yeah, that's when they became more electronic and then, yeah, stripping them back again for this Unbound EP was – sorry if I'm just getting ahead of myself here, but stripping them back now is, again, I've been sitting with these songs since like 2020, and it's almost the end of 2024. So this was kind of my way of reconnecting with the songs where I'm at now and feeling a little bit more, I don't know, I want to bring things back to the roots and back to the center, and just felt really good to sing them that way.

Anthony: Yeah, Dave was somebody who I had at least a few questions about because he's. He's a very interesting pick for this record. I mean, anybody who doesn't know, I mean, through his work with Yaya Yas and TV on the radio, he's like a bit of an indie legend and maybe not somebody who I think people would presume would be on like a Chelsea Wolfe producers I would like to work with, sort of short list. How does Dave end up on such a list in the first place?

Chelsea: Yeah, it was Ben. Ben had submitted a couple names for the list, and so it was one of his names. And, you know, I knew who he was and was kind of into the idea of something less expected, I guess. And like I said, once I met with him, I was more intrigued because I knew it was going to be a little bit more challenging and different than, I don't know, maybe going with a more straightforward rock approach.

Anthony: Was there kind of in the process of working with Dave and kind of making this record, was there a need for him to sort of familiarize himself with your canon and what you do and sort of find a way to complement it or support it? Or was it a very kind of click, a quick clicking and matching?

Chelsea: Yeah, I don't know that he went back and listened to my discography or anything. I think he was more into making something totally new. And I think originally he really wanted to take it super minimal and really strip everything away and just have one electronic element in my voice. And while that would have been really cool, I actually think it was a bit. I don't know. We had started these songs with a full band, and it felt like that would be the weird kind of wrong thing to do to just remove everyone from the record except me. So we found a balance of kind of stripping things away and making some of it a little bit more minimal and also still having some drum and guitar elements and things like that.

Anthony: So in those versions what were the original tensions still on a lot of these tracks to find a way to progress them up to the point where they're hitting these really intense peaks and crescendos and drones and just, you know, really crushing walls of sound?

Chelsea: Yeah, I definitely wanted to keep it dynamic and have at least a couple moments on the record where it really drove things upward and had that moment of culmination to the end of "Whispers in the Echo Chamber" and the end of "Dusk", made sure to keep those moments in there because that was a point of tension with us. Dave wanted to take the drums completely out of the end of "Whispers in the Echo Chamber" and to me, that just felt wrong. And also, I was imagining playing these songs live, and I wanted there to be that drum element, obviously, that would translate really well live, right?

Anthony: Yeah. I mean, the thing is kind of turning a lot of these. It seems like there's a lot of interesting sort of shape shifting going on because you're going from, you know, a straight series of rock demos and recordings and kind of turning those into electronic hybrids and then coming back and finding a way for the band to kind of recreate that in a way. Or are you, you know, is that kind of a conscious effort that's going into your mind when you're doing these live performances of the songs, or are you just figuring the band will be enough to kind of give people a different experience of it, and just kind of go from there?

Chelsea: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if this completely answers your question, but it was a bit of a challenge once the record was done to sort of relearn how to bring it to the live show. Because a lot of the vocal elements and guitar elements and things like that had been sort of transformed into an electronic element. And so it was like taking a guitar part that became almost a synth part and then making it back into a guitar part or finding vocal effects that I could play with that would sort of emulate the textures from the record and stuff. So it was definitely challenging. It took us, you know, a couple months of, at first to just sort of find our bearings with it and then, you know, just keep working on it.

Anthony: With what you do, there's a really sort of intense, I would say, emotive performance element to it. Was keeping that passion, keeping that emotion, keeping that potency in the vocals sort of difficult, or was that at all hard to keep sight of or a focus on? Through the process of kind of shifting these songs and shifting these instrumentals into something that was mostly synthetic and sequenced, as opposed to maybe the more visceral feeling of a live band being behind you?

Chelsea: Well, the vocals, I feel like, remained pretty clean and upfront on the record, so I felt like that part was almost easy in a way, to sort of just try to keep that straightforwardness and was actually a lot of fun for me because I'm usually playing with a lot of reverb and delay and stuff. So on this record, I was kind of into just letting my voice be a little bit more present and just raw. And I think because of that, I learned to find more control with my voice and just be focusing on the joy of singing and the joy of that emotion or whatever is coming out in a live setting, if that makes sense.

Anthony: It seemed like a lot of your songwriting process, at least, from an outsider perspective, shifted to kind of lean a little bit more on the texture of what's going on, as opposed to – it's difficult to put into words because in some ways, I feel like thematically, this is one of your more focused records because there are a lot of those themes of heartbreak and abandonment and you know, longing throughout a lot of the tracks that kind of mirror each other and reference back. But then by that same token, it sort of seems like you're trying to put things as simple as possible lyrically so that maybe the voice can kind of sit there as maybe more of more of an instrumental element as opposed to, you know, trying to tell a more detailed narrative where you're leaning into the poeticism of what you're saying. I don't know what exactly I'm asking here, but at least in terms of how you approach the lyrics on your records, from what you're doing here, to compare it back to Birth of Violence a little bit, it does seem a little night and day. It does seem like you're kind of simplifying things a little bit.

Chelsea: I think I'm slowly trying to. My lyrics can tend to be a bit cryptic or coded or something, and I'm slowly trying to become a little bit more straightforward with them. And so, yeah, there were definitely lines on this record that felt very straightforward. I guess it's still poetic in a way, but to say something like "bathing in the blood of who I used to be" that's a pretty visceral, straightforward image of just like a rebirth or something like that. So, yeah, I was having fun trying to be a little bit more straightforward while still having my way of writing things. It's a bit cryptic.

Anthony: Would you say you put more of a focus on this record in terms of the overall linear narrative of it? Because, you know, in terms of some of the themes of connection and possibly breaking up as well. It does seem like you put at least some conscious effort toward the end of the record to come to some kind of conclusion or resolution at the finish. Like a revelation, I guess you could say.

Chelsea: I have to say that kind of came later because the order of the album wasn't determined until the very end. So I think thematically, I knew that these songs fit really well together. And once they were finished, it just became really obvious. Like, the order that they needed to go in and the liminal being right at the center, being that sort of void space that in between space and dusk has kind of always felt like a closer to me, though, because it does have that feeling of I don't know, the end of the battle or something. Something kind of like whoever's involved in this story finding some sort of settling point, whether that's good or bloody or whatever. So, yeah.

Anthony: Okay. I wanted to ask you also about some of the really interesting, I would say, musical parallels on this record that I think really stood out to me. Whether it be Nine Inch Nails stuff or even to a degree, Portishead. As you sort of saw this opportunity to pursue more of an electronic direction for the aesthetics of this record, were those personal reference points that you feel like you were comfortable pursuing, or maybe was that more of an inspiration Dave might have been working from? Or was that just sort of like a coincidental middle ground that you guys kind of landed on as you were making this record? And it just ended up happening that way in terms of some of the similarities there to classics that migh be bringing in some of the same textures and elements and sounds and instrumentation.

Chelsea: Yeah. I mean, I've always been a big trip-hop fan, and it's always been a big influence on me. And I was excited about once we started working with Dave to sort of pursue that a little bit. It wasn't like a super intentional thing, like, okay, this song's gonna sound like Portishead or something like that. It was more just like loose inspiration, I would say Massive Attack is probably the most obvious and present influence on this record. And Dave's actually friends with Robert Del Naja and was sending some of these songs back and forth. So it was kind of cool to have him, I don't know, on the peripheral, hearing a little bit of it. My song "Salt" on that record is definitely – I describe it as a call amd response to that song "Teardrop" and yeah, I'd say Tricky. Definitely. Those really upfront kind of raw vocals, letting the sort of grit of your voice be part of the record. That was influential for me for sure. The moodiness of it and the beats as well. It's all just really entrancing. And there's really a hypnotic quality to a lot of the tracks as well. That's kind of undeniable.

Anthony: Was that something that you guys were kind of consciously going for, or did it just sort of end up happening that way in terms of creating a certain vibe, or a certain kind of response from the audience where you're kind of putting them into a trance you could say?

Chelsea: Yeah, I'm not sure it was a super conscious thing. I feel ,actually we ended up mixing it with Sean Everett, and I kind of feel like that's when the more hypnotic elements came out. He really pulled out certain things at the end of "Tunnel Lights" that sort of almost ducking the bass is doing and stuff, which is something I've kind of always loved and wanted to incorporate into my music. Like, that, to me has a very trancey, hypnotic feel. And so that's some of those more hypnotic textures were pulled out a little bit more and the voice was put in a different place in the mix. And, yeah, working with him was really cool. It was like he did a lot of it himself. And then Ben and I sat with him for two days and it was just feeling the songs transform even more under his magic was really, really cool.

Anthony: I also wanted to ask you about this X soundtrack that you had worked on not too long ago. How exactly or when exactly did that offer, that opportunity come through? And how did taking out a project like this for you differ creatively from the approach you might typically take for an album or anything along those lines?

Chelsea: I don't know exactly when I was asked, maybe 2020 or something like that. Yeah, I had done something with Tyler before for that, like, the DC Dark Knights comic book soundtrack. And, yeah, I just found it was really fun and easy to work with him. And he reached out about the soundtrack and asked if I wanted to collaborate. And, yeah, it was really fun. It was a big learning experience, I always say, because I'd never done anything like that before, and I've written songs specifically for TV shows and things like that, but I hadn't been asked to give voice to specific characters and specific scenes. And so, yeah, it was. I mean, it's interesting for someone who doesn't like gore at all to have to watch a stabbing scene a hundred times and write music to it. But that was challenging, but it was also really fun. And yeah, being given assignments is really fun for me because I'm always just like conjuring shit up for my own brain and inspiration. So I actually enjoyed the process. I was getting specific things to do, laughter, or specific sounds, or specific characters to sort of give mood to.

Anthony: Hmm. No, that does kind of provide an interesting fact about the process because I was going to ask, for anybody who isn't in the know, it is a slasher film that has a very interesting porn plot angle or inspiration to it. I was going to ask if the genre or the storyline or the concept behind this A24 production, was that at all a part of your process of deciding, yeah, this something I'd like to be involved with, essentially?

Chelsea: I mean, I think it's funny because people always assume that I just love horror movies.

Anthony: I think that's like the presumption for anybody that makes any kind of content or art that's dark in any kind of way. That's kind of the presumption.

Chelsea: Yeah. And I do love dark films. Like, I love Thirst and the Witch and things like that. And I love these movies, actually. I mean, I'm not typically a slasher movie girly, but yeah, I think these are really well done and the storyline behind all three of them. I mean, I guess I should talk about X because I wasn't really a part of the other ones, but it was really interesting and really different and just really well done. So even though it has that slasher element that I'm not typically drawn to, I thought it was just a really cool movie, and I enjoyed watching it.

Anthony: Yeah, you know, it's an unlikely context and narrative sort of work that genre angle into. Have you seen The Substance yet?

Chelsea: No, I don't think I'm going to because people have told me it has a lot of body horror, which I'm not good with, but it does have.

Anthony: A lot of body horror. Yeah, no, I liked it a lot myself. But I will say there are elements of the movie where they're definitely sort of incorporating this kind of cartoony, almost like Toxic Avenger, trauma, blood splatter sort of thing. And you don't usually see that incorporated into a film like this, especially one that's so stylized and also has obviously a very strong feminist angle to the messaging of it. It's not usually – It sort of reminded me of that in terms of an interesting marriage of sort of influences and genres. But either way, as you continue forward, do you see yourself sort of jumping more into film soundtracks or TV? Was that a really gratifying experience for you? Or is it really, at this point, more of a box you kind of checked off and you're gonna focus on other things and trying to accomplish other kind of new challenges?

Chelsea: No, I would love to do more. I think the main thing is that I'm hoping that I can get to a point where I can sort of focus on one thing at a time, you know, because there's just been a lot of having three projects going at once, and my brain isn't really great with that. So I struggle a lot just going back and forth between things. So, yeah, I mean, I would hope that at some point in my career I could sort of take on a project, like a film score and just focus on that for a period of time. So that's kind of like the ideal version. But obviously, if the right project was presented to me, I would definitely take it because I love that work and I would love to challenge myself to do more of it, for sure.

Anthony: Do you feel like you're in that position literally right now at this moment, where you're focusing on three different things at once?

Chelsea: Maybe I did recently. I don't know. It sounds like I'm complaining, I shouldn't be complaining. Everything's great, but I just did a full band tour in Europe and got home from that, and I'm immediately switching over to a totally acoustic set that I start next week. And it's not the end of the world, but, yeah, it's taking my brain a little bit to reconfigure, like, 'Okay, I'm going to be up there mostly alone, and I have to translate these songs into a way that's interesting.' I'm also writing new stuff. So I guess there's not that much on my plate currently, but it just feels like it because my brain is doing that sort of transfer thing right now. But it'll be fine soon.

Anthony: Okay. No, it's just. And again, I don't agree with the sentiment that you're complaining. It's not coming off that way to me anyway. No, it's just an interesting sentiment to hear because, again, looking over your catalog and your progression up until this point, at least from the outside, you have kind of consistently come across as an artist who seemingly kind of jumps from new challenge to new challenge really quickly. Alwaysdoing something different and taking a different approach. You are an interesting anomaly in a way, especially in an age in the music industry where it seems like in a lot of ways, what's beneficial for a lot of artists is a lot of consistency, and giving their audience exactly what they know they're going to get again and again and again. And I feel like you're somebody who consistently has proven to see success while subverting that. Do you sense between you and your audience that kind of push and pull between giving them a bit of what they want, but also subverting their expectations a bit?

Chelsea: Yeah, I mean, I always thinking it would actually be probably easier if I had been more sticking to one thing, one genre or something, but it's just not who I am. And I have to follow my instincts to the next sound that I'm chasing. And I think maybe I wouldn't have been successful actually if I had just tried to do one thing instead of following what is pulling at me. Anyways, now I'm getting lost. What am I doing? I don't know. I feel like there's sometimes a feeling at shows where I just did this set that was mostly a new record and heavier stuff, and then there's a few acoustic songs. And I could tell the people who liked the acoustic songs and the people who liked the heavier songs, and it just okay, but it almost feels weird like, "Carry On Flowers" or something, it's just a super loud, heavy song, and I can tell that some people would rather just hear "Flatlands" or something. So I think it's a little confusing. And I just have a lot of songs at this point.

Anthony: Right.

Chelsea: So I'm always trying to figure out which ones to play live. But again, I think there have been a lot of times in my career that I've felt like people either around me or my audience would maybe want me to go in a certain direction next. But again, I just felt like that would have been me forcing it, and I don't think that that would have been the right thing in the end. So. I don't know if I'm making any sense, but...

Anthony: No, no, I think you are. You know, I think you're explaining a very unique position that I think an artist only with your kind of catalog can have. You probably have audience members who are coming at you from many different directions, depending on which record is the first one they've heard or their favorite one. There's a lot of variety there. But simultaneously, as you said earlier, if you had just stuck to one single sound for the entirety of your career and you narrowed down into maybe the sound of your first couple of records, would you have gone on to do the X soundtrack? Would you have gone on to collaborate with Converge? You know, I mean, those kinds of crossovers, to me just sort of seem like the only potential for them to happen is how you've kind of traveled through your catalog in the way where you are kind of touching down on a lot of different sounds, some of which resonate very strongly with some people, some of which resonate very strongly with other people, and then you're sort of like the common thread through all of that.

Chelsea: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I've had multiple incarnations of this project as well, and, you know, we'll continue to do that over the years and bring in different players and different sounds. And I don't know, that's just kind of the way that I need to do things. And I have tried sticking to one thing in former bands and stuff, and I always end up just feeling like I have to bust out of that mold or that box, because I need to be able to do more and express what is true to me at the time.

Anthony: Are there preferred or hopeful collaborators that you could also see yourself working with in the future, that you aspire to do something with at some point, that you feel like could potentially work on some kind of imagined shortlist or something?

Chelsea: Right now, I'm pretty much trying to find people to write with because I typically just write alone or with Ben. And then we take things to a producer and focus more on the sonic elements. And I really want to find the right collaborators at this point that are going to help me push my actual songwriting forward. From melodies to arrangements and things, because I haven't really explored that very much. And it's interesting to me to think about the craft of songwriting and just really focusing on that first and foremost instead of focusing so much on, like, is this trip hop? Is this rock? Is this whatever? Just focusing on the song itself. And then that could probably take many different forms. I've already done a little bit I've been working on some songs with this producer/writer, Jen Desilvio, who's more pop leaning. We've been writing some stuff that I feel like is almost in the realm of Annie Lennox or something like that. So, I don't know. I made a TikTok recently talking about how I feel like my music is about to get a little experimental because I'm just feeling that way. I'm 41 years old now, and I've done a lot of stuff, and I kind of just want to have fun and focus again on writing good songs, no matter what they sound like. And, I don't know, I definitely feel like at some point I'll be pulled really strongly towards making heavy music again. I can feel that somewhere deep within me. But right now, I feel like I'm leaning a little bit more towards the unbound feeling of just stripping things down and going from there and trying to write even better songs. I'm just rambling now, but, yeah, I think we kind of touched on earlier how I feel like a lot of my music is based more on textures and being cinematic and creating this visual story. And I think I want to actually focus on writing a really good song that tells a story in itself without having to have a lot of electronic textures or whatever to bring that forward. Does that make sense?

Anthony: No, it does. When you say sort of improving as a songwriter currently right now, as somebody who's been doing what you do for as long as you have and had seen success with it, I feel like it would be, you know, difficult to argue that, you know, you don't showcase, you know, unique and standout talent as a songwriter. But, you know, what do you feel like personally at this point as somebody who's been doing it for as long as you have? Like, what are your blind spots? What do you feel like you could be doing better in the writing process, that you're still kind of, like, looking to learn?

Chelsea: I feel like maybe just bringing things to a little bit more traditional place or something. I think sometimes I'll focus on one part of the song, like, okay, this has a really good verse. And then over time, I just don't make sure the chorus is as good or something like that. So I kind of just really want to make sure that I'm supporting the song as a whole and that I really like each part of the song and there's not a part of the song where I'm just kind of like, 'This part's okay.' But, yeah, I feel like in the past, like, maybe this isn't – I'm not proud to admit this, but I think that because I have a recovering people pleaser, I sometimes tend to get a little lost in the studio when I'm around a lot of different people and a lot of different opinions and things like that. Or I don't know where I just would let something fall by the wayside because I was so busy trying to make sure everyone was happy or something. And I've done a lot of work with that even since She Reaches Out. I'm definitely more ready to get into the studio and not focus so much about all that shit and just focus on the song itself and making sure that I really love every element of it.

Anthony: Yeah. I mean, it's the natural balance of collaborating in the way that you do. You still want people to be enthusiastic about what they're taking part in, even if it is your project at the end of the day, and everyone's going to have their own perspective on what direction things should kind of go in.

Chelsea: Yeah.

Anthony: So in this process of kind of fine-tuning your songwriting abilities, is accessibility a factor that matters to you at all in terms of getting to that point? Are you thinking about, I want to write a song that kind of pops off a little bit? Or you talk about tradition. When you talk about working things in a more sort of traditional structure or format, is focusing more on choruses and hooks and that sort of thing a part of the learning process for you?

Chelsea: I mean, honestly, it sounds like fun to me to try to create something that could maybe, I don't know, hook someone in a little bit more. I don't know. I think it's funny because in the past, the songs that have caught on a little bit more are the ones that I was worried were way too cheesy or something. Something like "Carry On Flowers", when I wrote that one, I was almost embarrassed of it because I felt like, I don't know, it was just too hooky or something like that. But now I think it would actually be fun to write something that someone would want to sing along to, too. But I do feel like I've written songs in the past where I, like, "16 Psyche", when I wrote that, I didn't write it with that goal in mind of it being a catchy song or something. But once I wrote it, I kind of knew that it would be one that people would be into. And that is one of the more popular songs. Like, when I played at a show, that's usually the one that gets the most applause or whatever. So that feels good to know that my instincts are a little bit correct on that stuff. The people I was working with at the time did not agree that that was going to be a song that people liked, but I knew that it was. So it's cool that over time, that's been a proven thing that people connect to that song as much as I do.

Anthony: It's an interesting sentiment and one that I've heard from a few artists that maybe are sort of on the more kind of experimental edge, that after doing what they do for so long, after a while, there is kind of that longing or that temptation, let me try to see what happens when I simplify things. Then the process of finding out that that brings in a bunch of challenges that you sort of didn't presume were there because I think it's kind of assumed by a lot of people that it's easy to write pop music just because it's easier to listen to it, whereas creating it is kind of like a totally different beast than consuming it.

Chelsea: Totally. Yeah. I think it's very challenging. And this isn't all to say that I'm trying to write pop music or something. It's just me saying that I'm getting a little experimental with my music and just trying new things. And, yeah, I think even I'm gonna have a hard time with that, because, like I said, when I write something that I feel like is a little bit catchy, I immediately am like, ugh, like, no, you know, that's already happening. Like, the songs that I said I was writing with Jen DeSilvio there's this thing I sang, and I was just like, oh, my God, that is way too cheesy. And she was like, no, that's actually really good. And I was like, okay, fine, I'll try it. So I don't know. It's hard because I get cringed out when something is too perfect or too catchy or something. So it'll be an interesting process over the next year or so to try to write different songs, and maybe they'll end up just sounding exactly like everything else I've done. I don't know. Who knows? We'll see.

Anthony: Okay.

Chelsea: You're like, whatever.

Anthony: No, no, no. It's just really cool to get insight on this. And again, you are sort of like, a very versatile and dynamic artist, and it's really exciting to hear that you're continuing to kind of challenge yourself in whatever way that you are. I think if anything is encouraging here, it's that, yeah, you're current. I haven't settled. I'm still at the age that I am. I'm trying different things and trying to explore different options, and I think that's great. I also sort of like what you've done here with this recent EP that you've dropped as well. Do you see yourself going into the future, kind of like, continuing to find ways to reintroduce audiences to your work and kind of represent it in different fashions and sort of show them the different facets and layers behind whatever it is they might kind of get out of your work in the original presentation?

Chelsea: Maybe. I mean, this was, you know, something new to be able to have an album and then do a remix version and then do acoustic versions. And that was, you know, things that I wanted to do. And that was also what my record label wanted to do. So it worked out really well. And I don't know, I mean, I do like the idea of doing a live record at some point and being able to re-release some of my older music in that context. So maybe at some point we'll do that. But, yeah, I guess I haven't thought that far ahead.

Anthony: How exactly for "Cellar Door" did the Spiritbox cover come along? And were you surprised at what the band presented when you sort of got that version of the track?

Chelsea: Well, basically, I just covered the chorus on my TikTok channel. And then folks I was working with were like, oh, you should do a full version of it for this BBC session that you're doing. So I just put that together. And, yeah, I mean, I really love this song. I think Spiritbox is a really cool band and Courtney's an amazing singer and writer, and it was just something I was doing for fun and then kind of just kept getting encouraged to do more versions of it, so ended up putting that on there just to kind of shake things up a little bit with the Unbound EP and have something that wasn't directly connected to the record. And yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but...

Anthony: No, I mean, it's just really interesting that you dig on the band's sound and that there's also sort of like some reciprocal respect there. Because I think that is sort of like a crossover that a lot of people wouldn't necessarily presume that you're into that style or that brand of metal, which I think, you know, as you were kind of like, referring to earlier, there's sort of, I think, a snooty element of the metal or alternative rock world that might sort of see that more gently, more poppy sort of shade of metal music is like, oh, that's, you know, that's cheesy. I don't think there would have ever been a presumption from a lot of people that there was a connection or an appreciation there for what a band like Spiritbox does and vice versa.

Chelsea: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I admire bands that can write songs that are so precise and I don't think I would ever be able to write a song or write music like that. Just super precise. And I feel like everything I do is a little bit messy. So it's interesting to me to listen to their music and it just feels like a totally different world to what I could ever do. And doing my acoustic cover, I said, it was just kind of for fun because I felt like the chorus lyrics kind of connected to what I was going through. And that sort of difficulty of rebirth and leaving something and then finding yourself just reeling from everything you've been through and ealizing that you have a lot o shit to dig out from in order to start over again.

Anthony: I just want to say thank you for taking the time and coming through and having this conversation with me and just kind of unraveling the process a bit, talking about where things are going, getting into the. Relearning the songwriting process, how precision's been inspiring you a bit more and just everything else that has been happening around this record. I appreciate you very much. Is there anything coming out around the corner that we should be on the lookout for or are you mostly kind of being low-key now that you've had all these performances and the EP is out?

Chelsea: Yeah. I'm about to do a short us tour that's going to be all stripped down, and then after that, I'm going to focus on writing. And I am booking some stuff for next year, but nothing's set in stone quite yet. But, yeah, also thank you for having me on, and I really appreciate that you've been so supportive over the years. I know it's not like, for me, it's because you do what you do, but I just think a lot of people have probably found out about my music because of you and your awesome reviews, so thank you so much.

Anthony: Yeah. And, you know, and I know you're not writing your albums in the studio being like, 'Is Anthony Fantano going to like this?' But I still thank you for writing them because I mean, honestly, if there wasn't exciting or interesting music to talk about, my job and my life would literally be a living hell. So, thank you for making albums that are worth being excited about.

Chelsea: Oh, thank you. That's really nice to hear.

Anthony: No problem.

Chelsea: Thanks for having me.