AF: It is the "Married in a Year" guy. It is the TikTok guy. It is the tippy-toe guy. It is Brendan Abernathy. We're here to talk about his new song. We're here to talk about anything else that comes up in the conversation. Get some background that maybe you guys are not necessarily hip to, and maybe get a bit of insight into how all of this happened and how Brendan is taking all of it. Let's get the conversation underway. Dude, thank you for taking the time so early in the day and in the week to have this conversation.

BA: Oh, man, I'm excited. I think one thing I've always respected about you is that you have opinions and you speak them.

AF: I do have opinions.

BA: I think that's actually really rare in the modern music journalism landscape. It is clearly not rare in the comments.

AF: Okay, not in the comments. You feel like music reviewers, journalists, people covering stuff, they're not having opinions, they're not having takes?

BA: I think there are opinions. I think you're a lot stronger on taking a stand. Maybe that something isn't as great as everyone else thinks it is, which I respect because I love a good hot take. I think even if I disagree with you. I love it.

AF: I mean, I don't entirely disagree, but I feel like it's difficult for a lot of up and coming music journalists to kind of come out bold against certain things sometimes because, as you've sort of already experienced yourself the way certain things can kind of, especially if you're small and up and coming and kind of getting your name out there, the way certain things can go viral beyond your control in like a negative fashion. Then you have no real way to dictate how people take it beyond there. And I've known and have been aware of people who write a review for a publication and then all of a sudden they're like getting harassed by fans of that artist or that one review is like the thing that follows them around forever, whatever. And I mean, obviously that's happened to me too to an extent, but I'm doing it for myself, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not doing it for somebody else's benefit or website at the end of the day, aside from YouTube. There's a fashion of or sort of an element of independence to what I'm doing that allows me to have a little bit more freedom to say what I want to say, but knowing that it's all on me at the end of the day and I'm making my own personal decision to engage and say what I feel like I have to say.

BA: When you started, did you start with the ambition of being an independent music journalist or did you actually want to work for a publication? And then you ended up doing this?

AF: I was writing for some other publications and some weeklies and writing for NPR Music Song of the Day column, and then had some experiences where some of my thoughts or opinions were attached to headlines that I was not very happy with because, as a writer you rarely have any control over what the header is on an article. And regardless of what you've written, in a lot of cases with reviews, you don't even have full control over what the score is going to be. You could end up writing a glowing review, but maybe the score gets a little lowballed in terms of what you would have personally given it. I mean, the editors and the writers may have an agreement going into it, sort of like an assignment, like, oh, this is going to be a positive review. We're feeling like we want to kind of get behind this record. You're liking the album, nobody's told you have to like it, so write something that's positive. You do hire and get somebody freelance who is actually passionate about the album to write about it. But it may not necessarily 100% be your decision on what the score is going to be. Which is unfortunate because that's the thing that people go to first. That's the thing that they obsess over off the bat. They're not necessarily looking at the words.

BA: Yeah. It's also interesting that music journalists are artists too. And maybe in the same way that the tag or bridge to my song has been taken out of context. Like something that you write or say can be totally taken out of context and even twisted by the thing that people actually latch onto. So they're latching onto the number and the score. But really, you wrote a glowing review. I definitely never knew that the writer did not put the number on the album. That's so interesting.

AF: Let's talk about you, because we're here to talk about you. So let's kind of get into the story of what this all started with as you were just starting to dip your toes into. A few seconds ago you were talking about being with friends. You got a text from your mom. She said that she's glad that you're with friends right now. What exactly was happening to this track, "Married in a Year"? This performance clip that is uploaded to TikTok that your mom of all people caught wind of it and then sort of seeing maybe a thunderstorm oncoming due to some of the reactions.

BA: Well, my mom is a mom, so she's...

AF: Yes, we love a mom who's a mom.

BA: Yeah, she's my biggest fan. She thinks I can do no wrong. I could fart in a microphone and she would think it was the most beautiful symphony of all time. I'm her number one artist on Spotify for six years in a row, and I think like 99% of her time is spent listening to my music. We share a Spotify.

AF: Your mom's dropping a Spotify wrapped. You're at number one every year.

BA: Her second and third artists are the people I have duets with.

AF: Nice. Nice.

BA: She's my mom, so she cares about me as a person and also believes in me as an artist. And so, when the video first started popping off, it was literally just posted as like – I was texting my friend who helps me with social media, Zach, and my mom was actually at the concert in LA because I had just finished tour with my friend Sofia Isella and I was support for her on the run and we did 12 shows across the US and we ended in Atlanta. My sister got married and then I had to drive back to LA because I had a show 10 days later or something like that. And it's a 34-hour drive and my mom was like, I'll help you drive, which was a huge blessing. And so she helped me drive my car back. Then she was like, well, I'm just gonna stay for the show, and then I'll fly back after. So she was at the show and brought her on stage for a song that's about my greatest fear being my parents dying. And it's called "Die Slower". I sang the song with her on stage, and then we hugged, it's this great photo. We have a bunch of photos from the first hour and ten minutes of the concert that's not in the middle of a circle with lights. And I was gonna post some of those and just be like, 'I love LA. I love my friends here. I love my fans. Thank you for coming to the show. This was such a great night.' And then my friend Zach was like, 'Well, you know, Reels, if we're trying to gain traction, Reels have a better chance of popping off. We should post a Reel from the concert. And I was like, well, I loved my passion at the end, and passion is the core of my artistry, and I was being really vulnerable. So let's post the "Married in a Year" clip. It's also the next song I'm putting out. Never had played it live, except for one time at a radio show in Knoxville two years ago, like, summer 2023. Because I wrote the song in February of 2023, and I was like, "Let's do that one. I like the clip." So we put the clip out, and it starts going more viral than anything I've ever posted has gone. So it's at 50,000, 75,000 views, and everyone's loving it. Like, Bert Kreischer's following me. Like, everyone. Everyone's loving it. And then so we're like, okay, well, it's social media, so we're gonna double down on this clip. Let's post this iPhone angle that my friend Tyler just happened to have. He was there to film. He just had an iPhone angle of the whole song. And that's the one with my toes in it, right? And it's like the side angle, and there's the astigmatism lights or whatever.

AF: That's the first one I saw on Instagram Reels. That was my first exposure to it. It came across my Instagram Reels algorithm. I was like, 'What the heck is this?' And then I saw it going. Blowing up even bigger on TikTok. But yeah, go on.

BA: Yeah. And so we post that, and that one also starts all my fans are saying, 'this is sick.' Because my fans have seen my live show, so it's not out of context to them. It's perfectly in context. And I've done that circle a hundred times. So they know at the end of Brendan's concerts, he gets in the circle and he plays either an intimate song about what he's going through or he plays an unreleased song, and that's how he ends his show. Literally, all my fans know that. So not out of context to them. They're like, 'This is sick, love it.' And they all know I have vibrato. I've had vibrato since day one. So there's nothing there. And then I go in and I'm hanging out with my friends because I play these summer camps in the summer to make money, and these camps don't pay me, but I sell merch at them. And so I was headed to do one of those and leaving my friends. We were just having a last hangout, and I get back and my mom texts me, and she goes, I'm so glad you're with friends right now. And I'm like, what? What are you talking about? So I open Instagram, and it's just like, 'This is cringe. Go kill yourself. This makes me want to hang myself.' Like, this is crazy. I'm like, what the freak? I'm literally laughing. I'm like, this is insane, dude. I just posted a clip from my concert, and then I start to see people think it's staged. People think it's fake. There's conspiracy theories about it. And the funny thing is, this is the least contenty piece of content that you can put up as an artist. This is just me performing at my concert. There's no hook. It's just the song. It's not POV. You're at an indie concert, right?

AF: Right.

BA: You're bringing boiler room shows for indie singer-songwriters. You know? It's just me playing the song.

AF: As I said in my video, if people dig back into your social media history, you have other videos where you're staging a bit of an interaction, like, maybe somebody walking by didn't expect in the moment, which is obviously very orchestrated in comparison with I'm just going to post a clip of a live performance that I did, you know?

BA
Yeah.

AF: So the idea that this was totally planned, when in comparison with other stuff that you did, it seemed less planning went into it, outside of just performing.

AF: I mean, in the other stuff, like the xx, and the Frank Ocean video and the Roast Beef Love video. Right?

AF: That's a deep cut in the Brendan Abernathy short form, the Roast Beef Love video. People got to look up the roast beef. Yes, I have seen the Roast Beef Rose video.

BA: My personality is just, I'm very open. I'm very trusting. And my show is interacting with fans and playing songs that they want me to play and just conversational. And I care a lot about knowing my fans personally. And so I'm very interactive. And literally one day Zach was like, I'm just gonna set up a camera, just sit by this tree and play songs. And, like, the mailman interacted with me. A neighbor interacted with me. These two random people interacted with me. And we posted a clip of the lady whose name was Adele. So obviously, I played an Adele song. And it did better than any video we've ever posted. So we were like, well, I guess we should do more of these. And I enjoy them. The thing that's funny is I hate making content probably more than any art. I mean, all artists ain't making content, and I have such a cringe radar that I won't post stuff if I think it's even remotely cringy. And that's what's funny about me getting called cringy, because to me that's so in context that I guess I'm just completely unaware that it could be considered cringy.

AF: Right.

BA: And then some of the stuff is, like, I own it. The first moment in that concert I can literally show you a video is me walking up to the microphone after I take my shoes off, because I have to have my shoes off to loop. Well, otherwise I hit the wrong pedals and it sounds...

AF: Oh, okay, okay. I was going to ask, when did the shoes come off?

BA: Shoes come off the second I stand on stage because I loop basically the whole concert.

AF: Okay, so you're looping guitars, vocal lines. You're looping stuff.

BA: Yeah, I'm a very good looper.

AF: Okay, okay, okay.

BA: I've never seen myself loop, so I don't know.

AF: You've seen recordings of yourself looping at this point.

BA: Yeah, no, I'm a pretty badass looper. I'm not gonna lie. I'm pretty good.

AF: Okay. All right. You lied there. You were being humble.

BA: Yeah, I was just riffing to be honest, which is why I'm built for this moment. Because I'm just like, all right, whatever guys. But the thing is, they're attacking my vibrato. All right, I have vibrato. I know that. It's a good vibrato. It's a cool vibrato. It's a little aggressive in that clip, but also it's the climax of the whole show.

AF: It's very aggro. It's very aggro vibrato.

BA: But it's my show. I can do whatever I want to at the end of the show.

AF: You can. You can. You're allowed to do as much vibrato as you want at your performance.

BA: The other two things that I feel like people really latch onto is the outfit, which you commented on, and the toes. Well, the outfit, there was originally no bandana. However, I was sweating my ass off, and I looked horrible. And I had a bandana tied around my mic stand, and I literally grabbed it, and I say into the microphone, this is gonna make me look like an idiot, but at least I'm not gonna be sweaty. And I put it on.

AF: So it was functional. Everything, the toes, the bandana, it's all functional. We're explaining it away. It's all functional.

BA: And then the toes. At the first thing I said into the microphone, I had this vision for my beginning. I was gonna set it up all moody and all this stuff, and that's just not who I am. And so literally, I start my moody intro, and then I take my shoes off, and I go into the microphone and I say, 'Dogs are out.' And the whole crowd starts barking at me. So from the get go the toes are a bit. But I also remember vividly, I'm walking to the center after I've been like, 'Hey, what do y'all think about me coming out in the middle and playing the next song I'm gonna release out there?' And everyone cheers, whatever. And I step over my shoes, and I remember thinking, 'I should put these on. Ah, whatever.'

AF: I don't need these shoes. Whatever.

BA: Yeah. And then that's the thing that people latch onto, which, whatever, again, everyone knows. Every one of my fans knows I don't wear shoes, so it's not like a fresh thing to them. None of them were shocked. And it is funny. Like, the toes thing is objectively funny. When I saw the clip, I was like, damn. I was up on those things like I'm at a ballet. I'm a ballerina. A Ballerina up in there. That's impressive. I don't know if I answered. I know I went on a rant, so I don't even know.

AF: I mean, you've explained most of the things that people are latching on to. And just to put a pin into it, at the end of every show, or as many shows as possible, you do this thing where you come out into the crowd. Again, I understand how, without context, that is a thing that people would see and instantly think, like, oh, this is staged because people are sort of used to seeing so many instances of whatever on social media, where maybe you get your friends together, 'Oh, I have an idea, everybody, take your phones out. Da, da, da, da, da. We're gonna do this.' So in a way, it does read like other things people have seen on social media, which I'm sure even the audience there in the crowd is cognizant of, as they're kind of experiencing it in the moment, even though you're deciding of your own free will to do it without any plan outside of this is my performance, this is what I do with my performances. I'm going to do it again.

BA: For the record, they love it.

AF: It doesn't seem like anybody there is having a bad time.

BA: No. And the people that are like, I know one of the guys that everyone's zooming in on. I don't know all of them, but I know one of them. And he, months ago, had been to one of my concerts, and we were in a small group vibe type thing, and we're sitting in a circle, and the icebreaker question was, best concert you've ever been to. And he was like, Brendan Abernathy, Mudwater. And he was completely unironic about it, and I was like, all right, whatever. And he goes, no, I'm serious. Like, dude, that blew me away. And so when I was going back to the Moroccan, I texted him and I was like, 'Hey, playing the Moroccan. Pull up.' And he goes, 'Oh, I wouldn't miss it for the world.' He gets his shift changed to come to the show. He invites all his friends to come to the show. And he obviously loved it. And then people are zooming in, like, 'This guy hates his life.' And I'm like, 'Well, he's loving it.'

AF: I know he's locked in. He's actually locked in. Yeah, I think it's more locked in than everyone else.

BA: A good concert makes you not want to film. It makes you not want to take your phone out. It makes you want to live in the moment and let all the shit you're bringing in from your life be cleansed and brought through. The artist's job as the performer is to take the audience and bring them into a space that is safe and that feels like they're going to leave better than they came in. And that, to me, is always my goal, is that I want people to feel seen. I want people to feel valued. You're not just another person at my show, I value you that you're here, and I want people to leave high on life. When I went and watched Interstellar for the first time, I want people to leave feeling that way. I want people to leave feeling like when I saw John Mayer and Ed Sheeran together at the Wiltern, that's how I want people to feel. And I've been told time and time again, that is what I succeed in for at least some people. And I think the moment, what you were talking about with moments being taken out of context on social media is just crazy. I mean, let me. Let me read you a DM I got last night.

AF: Crazy DM. Good DM.

BA: Oh, crazy, bro. You're gonna think this is hilarious. Okay, all right. So this dude, probably a burner account. Most of them are bots and burners, so it's whatever, but where'd it go? Where'd it go? Where'd it go? Okay, this guy. This is how long it is...

AF: What?

BA: Make sure you bleep out his username.

AF: Tandom guy just writing you a whole tome.

BA: Random guy taking 10 minutes of his life to tell me to quit.

AF: That's so much time to devote to this.

BA: Blah, blah, blah. No matter how many different variations you sing, these lyrics are ass. Song isn't relatable. To anyone and you have zero self awareness of your pitch and ability.

AF: I think, I think off the bat that's true because some of the people in the comments saying they want to hang themselves, maybe they heard the lyrics and like, shit, someone I dated a few years ago just got married, that's why I want to hang myself. I feel like that's proof of it being relatable.

BA: I don't sing or play guitar as a profession, but damn, I wish I could show you out any day. That sounds seducing. Kind of sounds like he has a crush on me.

AF: That's a supreme amount of hate. And it's also an acknowledgment that there is something to what you're doing. It's like, 'Man, you, you're terrible, but you're at least like better than me at songwriting and guitar. And I wish I was as good as you or better you as songwriting guitar, just so I could make you feel bad.'

BA: I could show you. He keeps going. He keeps going.

AF: Oh yeah, I know. I bet.

BA: Especially when it comes to writing. Why would you pity yourself and be sad about someone else getting married and having a kid? I don't get it. Am I missing something or does the song make no sense? He goes on and on and on and on. All I did. And I usually do not respond to negative things, but I was like, this guy spent a lot of time that he did. He dedicated a lot of time.

AF: Yeah, you want him to get something for his effort.

BA: So I want to give him something. You know, he didn't just like throw a throwaway comment to get 15,000 likes and join the mob. He came to me directly in my DMs to show me. And I respect that. I really do. I respect a man who wants to say something to your face because most of these people wouldn't say it to your face. And so all I did was send him the song. All I did was send him the song. Because I'm like, you don't get what the song's about. That's not what the song's about at all. The song is about insecurity. It's about comparison. It's about, I've taken seven girls on dates who have gone on to marry the next person and that makes me feel bad about me. And his response was, damn me. Talk about a horrible first impression. I listened to the full song and understand it now. Outside of that one snippet, 'It's A beautiful song, man. I'm really sorry for saying that shit. You made me feel like a dickhead. You earned a follow. And I'm sorry for my first comment.' And I respect a man who can admit they're wrong. So shout out to that guy. And I think that's the thing that's frustrating to me about it all is like, it's so out of context and people are making a judgment on my entire life and career based on one 30 second clip. And if they just went and listened to the full song, they would see like, oh, this isn't even what we think it's about. The song is great. It's unique. Like, I'm not making every other folk stomp clap thing. The song has a tempo change. The song has like, oh, Coldplay type chorus in the middle of a folk song and then drops out to like this beautiful interlude.

AF: Are you talking about 'When's it ever going to be me' or 'When's it going to be me you're talking about?' I think that part's pretty Taylor [Swift]. More Taylor than Coldplay, honestly. I feel like that's a pretty Taylor part.

BA: I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll take it.

AF: You know, it's funny reading that or you reading that comment. I had a similar reaction to some of the content of the song myself, which when I heard the rest of the track or I heard the full thing, I was kind of of like, okay, you know, I read that wrong at first because it wasn't fully in context. I sort of read the line that obviously a lot of people are hung up on the "American Dream" line is maybe a little pretentious. I was like, who the fuck is this guy being judgmental of whether or not people just want to start a family or something. You know, is he looking down his nose at this person? But then when I heard the entire thing and I was like, 'Oh, wait a second. You know, he's also convincing himself he's going to write a love song. They're both mutually living in their own delusion.' It's like they're both delusional in their own way. Which, you know, if it doesn't resonate for you, it doesn't resonate for you, but there's still a balance there to it. You're not out and out being hateful for no reason at all.

BA: I'm genuinely not being hateful at all. I'm hateful towards myself if anything. And I think what's funny is you commented he's just the kid who got it all wrong.

AF: That line still...

BA: And probably what the name of the album, so get ready.

AF: Oh God, stop.

BA: Probably the most wrong I was reading the situation was when you commented that I was like, 'Oh, he gets it.'

AF: You know the thing about that line... The song is self-critical, it is true. But I feel like that part is a little self-aggrandizing in a way. Like, that line reads to me as something you would say to yourself or a line that you would envision happening in your head. If you're playing the song and you're being shot by Spielberg. And then as the song ends, the camera pans out, and then the narrator goes, 'And there he goes, the kid who got it all wrong.' And it's like come on man. I don't know, it just sort of seems like this self-narration sort of depiction that just felt very directorial in a way. You're being directorial in your own work.

BA: What's interesting is that this was the first – that snippet was the first line I wrote for the whole album. That another girl had gotten married that I'd taken out on a date. And I was just like, "You'll be married in a year in the suburbs. The kid on the way in three." And I just sang. And it was literally just one time through, I sang it. I was like, "I'll be convincing myself I'll be the kid who got it all wrong." And I literally stopped and I was like, that ain't me. Like I've done everything right in my life, by the world standards or whatever. I went to college, I got good grades, I had good job offers. Then I went into music and I hustled my ass off and I'm doing a good job and like I'm building a career and I've been doing it mostly independently from social media, which maybe was the way to go. And then basically the whole album is me exploring that one phrase. It's me asking like, 'why do I think about myself that I'm the kid who got it all wrong?' Like, why do I think I got it wrong? Even though my life experientially is pretty great. Like, I go to national parks and write Music. I play concerts for people that want to hear my songs and know the words to them. I go to studios and write songs and record them. I sell sweatshirts to make a living, like merch. And so I really just had to explore that about myself. So when I said that, I think it was out of nowhere, like, I didn't really understand it. And then for the next year and a half, I explored it through songwriting. And that's what the album is actually about. Is like me really asking 'Am I the kid who got it all wrong, or is that being like a little narcissistic, delusional, or self deprecating to an extreme?' But yeah, your comment. I was like, 'He gets it.' Like, he gets that it's both sides are not content. And it's not critiquing the American Dream. It's not even. But it's also not praising the American Dream. It's just saying, like, 'Okay, if you are alive, which I'm alive, like, I'm alive, I'm doing my thing. That's the American Dream. My friends who are married and live in the suburbs, that's the American Dream. However, we both feel like I would want to be. I want to be married. Like, Brendan Abernathy wants to be married. And they feel like I want to go to national parks and not have a kid that makes me stay home. So it's like we both feel like we want things that we don't have, and no matter how much we get, we still want more. That's more what the album is about. And the song is just like the intro to insecurity and comparison. And so maybe it's self aggrandizing, which I'm all about hero journeys. So, like, if I'm Odysseus in this, that's cool and fun.

AF: I think everyone wants to be on their own hero's journey. So, I mean, I get it. It's not anything that I feel like we can torture you over. It's something that I feel like a lot of people want to envision themselves on. I feel like most people's lives are pretty mundane, like even an artist's existence can very much be. But, you know, sort of building it up to be like this epic journey and mission that you're on, like, can certainly make it more palatable.

BA: Yeah, being an artist is just going to gas stations and McDonald's a lot. That's all it is.

AF: That's not untrue. And also Buc-ee's, which is also very fun. But with that being said, I've said this. I've seen other people say this. It sort of seems to be like a view of you and what's going on. That is holding some water with a lot of people. Do you feel like you're being hated into success? Is that even such a thing in your view?

BA: Oh, man. It's a great question. Also, should I call you Anthony or Fantano? What do you like going by?

AF: You could call me Anthony or Fantano, whichever you prefer.

BA: What do you prefer?

AF: I'm fine with both. I'm neutral on both. They're both good.

BA: Well, yeah, I don't know. I can tell you that probably in five years, maybe I'll look back and this will be a real big turning point where, sure, I was hated into the algorithm, and then I started reaching more people through my music. And then I also think there's a value in making art that isn't universally beloved. Like all the artists I look up to have a lot of haters.

AF: Yeah. Big Swifty over here. Big Swifty guy.

BA: Yeah. Big impact. She's had a big impact on my life, so I think that's why. And yeah, I love her songwriting and stuff, but I also look up to a lot of other artists. But to say I'm being hated into success, I think maybe the hate is fueling the algorithm that's sending it to the people that are going to be my fans. I don't want to give people that comment negative things any credit in my success. Because you said.

AF: You said you had a bit of a fan base or your music. Though it may have been lower in terms of visibility, you did have a fan base prior to this. So people who are obviously going out to shows and buying tickets, and have merchandise.

BA: I had 13,000 Instagram followers, and probably 12,000 of those have come through live concerts, not through the Internet. And that's who my success is built on, the 1500 couches I've slept on and the people who have let me stay on their couch for free.

AF: So, old school.

BA: Yeah. My success is built on the 20 people who came to a house concert in Orlando in 2019 and had no idea who I was. It's built on the two girls that came to a concert in a Yogurt shop in Bloomington, Indiana a year and a half ago. I'm not getting hated into success. This has been six years of 300 days, a year of touring and learning what my artistic voice is, learning what I want to say and learning to listen better. And it's being built by caring about the people who care about me. And I'm not going to lose energy over people who just mindlessly hate with no research or anything. I think someone who takes the time to decide that they don't like me, great. And I think someone who just has a knee-jerk reaction, they don't like me, that's fine. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I do think that the hate is fueling me to reach more people who will like my music. So I don't know, I guess that's an industry thing though. I think that's my main thing. I would say, Anthony, "You're getting hated into success?" Yes. Every record label is in my email inbox right now. Tons of managers want to manage me because I'm self managed. The industry is definitely on that narrative of like, 'Oh, the haters are going to fuel your rocket to the moon to success.' But as the artist, it really just pisses you off and kind of hurts. Like, it's not like I'm laughing with the jokes. The jokes are funny, the memes are funny. The hate is just like, you just feel misunderstood and like no one's giving you a shot and no human ever wants to feel that way. And this experience is not isolated to me as an artist. It's also not isolated to me as a human. I think everyone has felt bullied or talked down to or punched down on or hated on in their life in some way, whether it was in middle school or high school or now or they're still in middle school and high school. And if I can be a small light of how you can deal with that without stooping down to it and laughing with it and just continuing on and doing what you know you want to do and what you care about, then that's, I think, a win for the world.

AF: Something I want to ask again because I find it interesting that prior to all of this you were kind of going about promoting yourself and getting yourself out there in maybe what a lot of people would interpret as a bit of an old-fashioned way, a grassroots sort of way. I'm just going to perform, perform, perform, perform, perform at all these different places. And while that may be your intention and what you personally want to do and the way that you want to go about it, I feel like we still live in a very information age world. How did you – if you want to sort of lend some advice to any musicians here – how did you put yourself in a position where you're getting booked in these at very odd and interesting places, house shows, yogurt shop. You were just at a summer camp, Christian summer camp vibes?

BA: Yeah, more or less.

AF: So you're this totally unknown singer songwriter with a bit of a small social media following. How are you getting yourself into these spots and places? Are you just like,'Hhey, I'm this random songwriter. I would like to perform at your yogurt shop?' Do you have this sort of ride or die lifelong friend booking agent who's calling up all these places? I got a hot act for you. He's Brendan Abernathy. And if he plays at your yogurt shop, everybody's got to come in and go crazy. How are these interesting booking situations happening as you're kind of still building up your name and your visibility as an artist?

BA: Yeah, well, in 2019, so before the Great Panini, right? I had just graduated from college and I had a lot of friends who were around different cities in the south and I read a bunch of books about the music industry because I didn't study music. And I was in a band and managed the band all of college, but I didn't really think it was possible to do music full time as a job. What I realized though, is that the main revenue stream was through touring. And so my first thought was like, 'Okay, well, I'm gonna play a bunch of venues.' And then I was like, 'Well, no one's gonna come see me play. No one's going to buy tickets.' And so I just made a spreadsheet of like 150 friends and where they lived, and I texted all of them personally and I said, hey, I'm trying to do music full time. To do that, I need your help. And the way you can help is you can host a house concert, let me stay on your couch, and invite 25 of your friends. And I did I think 80 of those before March 2020. So I was just providing my friends with a fun night for their friends. And that's how I got started. And then the pandemic hit, and I did a concert in my parent's yard, and it was like a huge hit locally. And so then I did another one and it like doubled. And so many people were walking up after with their masks on, and they were like, 'This was the highlight of my week and my month. Thank you.' And I was like, 'You know what? That's what music is about, giving people a win.' And so I took that on the road, and I did. I just did these outdoor park or people with big yard concerts. And I think when you're the only concert people go to for a year and a half, they build a pretty deep fandom for you. And so I did that for two years. And then I started doing the camps because they needed help with music. It's a Christian camp, but they use non-Christian music. So I'm playing like Shawn Mendes and my own songs because my songs aren't Christian songs. And they're so fun. Everyone's having the time of their life, and that's great. And also, you sell a lot of merch, and so it's like a great way to make rent. But for the first four years, I wasn't paying rent, which is how I was able to do it full time. I was living out of my car, sleeping on people's couches all over the US and just playing house concerts in my hometown. My first venue show, I sold out Eddie's Attic, where I played on June 18. And the owner of Eddie's Attic reached out to me and was like, 'Who the heck is this kid? How did he sell out this venue?' And so we got lunch and he became just like a really good friend and mentor to me. And he got me connected with my booking agency, which is High Road, which is just like a pretty renowned independent booking company. They have Phoebe Bridgers and some other amazing people. And then they started getting me in clubs and venues and stuff. And then I just have such a network from before that. Like, for example, the yogurt shop happened because my tour ended in Madison, Wisconsin, and I had to get back to LA. And so I was like, well, I'm gonna play the yogurt shop here. And then I'm gonna play like this show here, and then I'll play Denver just to get back.

AF: It was just on the way. And plus, you wanted some yogurt too, so, you know, we're doing a yogurt. Stop.

BA: I also realize I was misspeaking. It was Acai.

AF: Okay, okay. Okay. Got it.

BA: I thought it was pronounced akai.

AF: Yeah, I feel like that's. That's more fitting for the modern era. There are not as as many yogurt shops as there are Acai bowl shops, so that makes sense.

BA: I think, though, you said advice for people.

AF: No, I feel. I feel like you're giving it. You're telling everybody. You're telling everybody how you organically built this network of fans and experiences and also connections just by constantly putting yourself out there and not necessarily worrying about, 'Well, I don't have a million Instagram followers yet. I can't really do anything.' You're just doing it without worrying about whether or not you've got the Internet side taken care of yet.

BA: Someone told me yesterday that Taylor Swift signed 83,000 vinyls for her fans for Tortured Poets, and she does not have to do that. She is a billionaire.

AF: She can give herself carpal tunnel. She's not gonna be able to write her next song. What is she doing?

BA: She cares about her fans, and that's what I think I connected with her about. And I saw that she was connecting with 70,000 people simultaneously. And that's what I really wanted to do, I wanted to get in a room and see my life experience and help other people through their life experience. And so I didn't want to wait for an Internet moment or for the industry to tell me I was ready for that. I also wasn't very good. I mean, maybe a lot of people say I'm not very good now, but a lot of people think I am.

AF: Except the guy who wants to show you up and hates you. Except that guy.

BA: He's on board now. Yeah.

AF: Yeah, well, he's on board, but previously he hated you, but he still thought you were good.

BA: Yeah. And I guess just go out and do it. Like, I toured 300 days a year for four years, and I've toured 200 days a year the last two years. So, I don't want to wait for people to tell me I'm ready for my art to connect. I want to go out and find the people that want it now, and that's not changing. There's no amount of hate comments that can make me stop because I've gotten a DM a month for six years about how my song has helped someone through something. I've gotten a handwritten letter about how my song helped someone when they were having suicidal thoughts. There's no hate that can outdo that. That's what matters. And I don't need an Instagram following to do that. I just need a work ethic.

AF: We got to talk a little bit of a Taylor sidebar over here. Given that you are a Swiftian, and maybe we have some points of contention on that front. I Reputation is not the weakest Taylor record, what is? Am I out of my mind for not really digging on Reputation?

BA: You're gonna snippet this and put it on the Internet and.

AF: No, no. Someone else is gonna do that. It's not gonna be me. I'm gonna put the whole interview out there because I want people to have the context.

BA:But I think every Taylor album is special in its own way.

AF: Sure, yeah, you could feel that way. I feel that way about some of my favorite artists, but I still have least favorite albums from them.

BA: It is better than anything I will probably evber make...

AF: Sure, that could be true too, but.

BA: The album that I least listen to is probably Evermore.

AF: Okay.

BA: However, I like Evermore. I just think Folklore is a lot better. And so I listen to Folklore more than Evermore.

AF: I like Evermore more than Folklore, but –

BA: Okay, I think that makes sense for you. I think that makes sense for you. That makes sense to me. For you.

AF: Yeah. It's probably the most indie, folksy, pretentious album she's ever done, so that's probably why it resonates with me.

BA: Yeah, no, I think that makes sense. I mean, I love it, though. Aand then I also think the newer albums, I don't have the emotional connection to that I did the first seven. And I think Reputation, I guess I've had some fans commenting like, you're in your Rep era, which is. So. I'm not in my Rep era. I'm not playing stadiums. So, like, I'm getting the hate of a stadium artist. As someone who plays house concerts, it's like, what are we doing, guys?

AF: I feel like you also have to have a pretty sizable body of work behind you before you're really in your Rep era.

BA: Or any era.

AF: Right, right, right. You're not in an era. You're still in the early stages.

BA: I'm in the grind era. I'm not in an era. Doing my best out here. I've just tried to survive. But they're like, yeah, you're getting all this hate. Like, stay strong. And I will say, as a Taylor Swift fan, when she was getting all the Rep hate, I don't think it mattered what she put out. I would have been like, 'This is amazing. This is our girl.' You know what I mean?

AF: Uh huh. So you're, you're the type of fan, you've been there, sort of ready to go to war in the comments.

BA: No, I'm not a comment war guy, and I'm not a lore guy. I'm not a lore guy.

AF: Lore guy. Not a war guy.

BA: No, I don't listen to the podcast. I don't really care who the songs are about.

AF: Oh, interesting.

BA: I just love the music and love the art and I'm thankful for her impact on my life.

AF: You're not putting together "The Black Dog" dots and you're like, who is this at this time? He was there, this person was here. This is the timeline of this relationship. You're not doing all that.

BA: No, no. People will text me and be like, 'Are you excited for May 26th? That's when she's gonna drop Rep TV.' And I'm like, yeah, I'm going to be excited on May 26th if she drops it. But like, I'm not like planning my life around it.

AF: I want to know your view of this as a fan of Taylor and I sort of want to know if maybe you have thoughts about this in regards to your own music. But I feel like, at least from my own outside perspective, that element of her music and her fan base has reached a bit of like a weird feedback loop to where I don't think she obviously, you know, like you, I don't think she planned any of this, but I think this is something that she has sensed in her fan base since having gotten as big as she has. And now sometimes we'll consciously put little Easter eggs in certain songs. Just knowing like the fans will pick up on this given public information that is out there, out of my control, people are probably going to react to this in this certain way and it'll create a conversation like, do you think that's happening on some level? Possibly, yeah.

BA: I agree. I don't know if I... don't know. I mean, I don't know. We'd have to talk to her about it. I don't know how intentional she is about.

AF: Yeah, for sure it's theorizing.

BA: Too many of them for them to not be intentional. And then what I think is funny, what is funny is that I think people read into things that aren't. Such as the May 26th thing. People were like 13 times 2. Like there's all these like number stuff and I'm like, I don't know. I don't think about it ever. I listen to the songs and I'm very excited that she got her masters back. Both for her as a win and also so that I can guilt free listen to the original version of Enchanted, which I prefer personally.

AF: Though she has the masters out or the masters, she owns them again. Were you looking forward as a fan to hearing the rest of the re-recordings of the first album, for example? Because the first album, re-recording would have been crazy.

BA: Right. The outtakes from that album would have been really interesting because she was such a baby songwriter at the time.

AF: Right. And obviously that's like the batch of songs that there's the most distance from.

BA: Right.

AF: You know, like in that respect that would have been a much more interesting release than Reputation. You just kind of put Reputation out respectively. Whereas the first album's kind of a wild proposition given just how much distance there has been time wise.

BA: Yeah. And you're a music guy, I think, so you listen to it and you're like, 'Okay, her voice sounds very different when she's 17 than when she's 31.' And obviously my voice sounds different from when I'm 22 to when I'm 28 or from 25 to 28. So it's your voice, the instrument changes as you go. And I think it would have been super fascinating to hear those first songs when she's a 15, 16 year old girl singing them as a 30 something year old woman. Because whereas like 1989 almost sounded exactly the same. It's also mostly electronic production and I think Rep would have sounded very similar. I was excited for the vault tracks for Rep for sure. I mean, I will say I definitely for every album have still preferred the songs that she chose originally. I mean, I like the vault tracks but. But I mean, I just think I have such an emotional connection to the original ones. And that's what music is. Right? That's why people are so pissed off in my comments is because it evokes some emotional reaction inside of them. And in the same way, Taylor Swift evokes a positive emotional reaction for me. And I can't explain to you why I love the songwriting or the songs. I'm not a music critic. I'm just a music listener and creator. And so I just know I like them. And I don't get into the – who's she dating? Is she actually married to Travis Kelsey? I don't know. I hope she's happy. That's really it. Like, she. I think she deserves the world and I think she's had a lot of eyes on her. And now I have a special appreciation for how she has dealt with everything she's gone through. Because it's really rattling. I know I laugh on social media and I do think the stuff is funny, but, I mean, it's crazy to go from like, no one knowing who you are to overnight. Like, I was in my local Chick-fil-A and this girl was like, are you "Married in the Suburbs", guy? I'm like, not the name of the song and not my name. I don't know, it's really rattling. And some people are like, he's making money off this. I'm not making a dime off this. Like, because, number one, I'm not going to monetize the meme. Like, I'm not trying to be the Rizzler or Baby Gronk. I'm trying to be an artist who sells out Red Rocks. Like, that's always been my goal. I'm not trying to be a meme who monetizes a meme. I'm trying to be an artist who connects with fans and sells tickets and makes art that I care about and lives in a small town and doesn't get bothered. Unfortunately, you have to have notoriety with the fandom, and that's fine. And I've accepted that. And I signed up to be a product and that's what artists are now. And so I'm dealing with it. It's just new. But to think that Taylor's dealt with that since 2006 is wild. And every artist, too. I saw a Youngblud video yesterday. He was talking about getting hate, and I'm like, dang, it's so sad that all these artists are dealing with this when really most of us just want to make our art and live our lives and connect with people who want to connect with us and not worry about the others.

AF: I mean, we've talked a lot about the hate comments, but I feel like another element of all of this that has to be talked about because it is interesting. I mean, there's a lot of art and content out there that gets hate comments. But I feel like one thing that's kind of interesting and special about the reaction that people are having to what you're doing is that on top of all of that, there are also countless. And I mean, I've only seen the tip of the iceberg of them parodies of what you've done. Like, it's not just people hating on you. It's people, like, literally copying you and, reading your every move to try to recreate it in their own way. Have there been any,in your opinion, great ones that stand out to you that you're a little obsessed with and do the parodies hit in a different way than just sort of the comments? Does it also hit you in a negative, emotional way, too? Or does it feel almost like flattering in a way? Because it's like, wow, these people have observed me so closely, whether they like what I do or not, to where they want to copy me.

BA: Well, you're talking to an artist who four of his biggest fans have made two parodies of my songs, and I sent them the instrumental to make them.

AF: Wow.

BA: I think things are funny.I f you come to my show one day, you'll be like, 'Oh, he's literally making fun of himself the whole concert. That is actually my M.O. is I am making fun of myself, taking on the fact that I am a little awkward and I'm a little weird and I am bad with love. I'm bad in love. Sorry. Sorry.' And so I think at first I was just confused. I was like, what's funny about what I'm doing? Am I off? Like, I don't see what's funny. And then slowly, as it continued, I was like, 'Oh, I see what's funny. The toes are funny. The salute is funny. The three is funny. I guess the phone lights are funny. And so genuinely, the parodies are almost flattering, and I think they're funny. I think the only thing that's frustrating about the parodies is that I wish it was funneling to the master, I wish more people were listening to the song. Like that guy who DMed me. Like, people are making a judgment based on people laughing about one moment but they're not going and listening to the actual art, which I think is good. Lots of other people think is amazing and at least form an opinion about the art before you come to a conclusion. But the parodies are funny. I love comedy. I think my favorite one that I've seen, Mitzi did a skit about the lyrics, where the guy's like, 'Are you thinking about that guy again?'

AF: I was just gonna say that's my favorite. My favorite one is the sketch and it's the couple and it's envisioning the couple that you're sort of like singing about. And she's like, yeah, he could be in LA with a dance company by now. You know, what if I want to be dancing in the In LA?

BA: That one was so, so, so great.

AF: The Charlie I love, I love the part toward the end where they're kind of going over the timeline of the lyric, specifying when they were married. And it's like with a baby on the way in three and she's like clearly pregnant. The baby is not on the way in three. He's like, no, we've been married for two years. The baby is on the way much sooner than that.

BA: Yeah, I think that's my favorite one. I like the mice interrupting it. I think that one's funny.

AF: Okay.

BA: My face is a cicada is funny. Yeah, that one's funny. I'm trying to think. I mean, I've been sent thousands of them.

AF: Oh yeah, I'm sure you're getting inundated with them, which is annoying.

BA: I'm like, stop taking. You're my friend. Don't send me a meme. Go make a TikTok about me and my art.

AF: At this point, you're seeing them and you're like, this is cliche, original.

BA: Do you think I don't know this exists? Yeah, now you all are just following a trend. Do something new, make something fresh and creative. Like.Yeah, but I think all those were the Mitzi skit is above and beyond.

AF: It's peak. And it's, it's, it's close attention to the lyrics. They're acting it out. It's not just like a musical, you know, recreation or anything. And there's a chemistry to the acting, too. We got it right.

BA: Yeah. Mitzi and I weere messaging about it, and she's like, 'Yeah, I love the song. Congrats on a good song.' And I've always admired her comedy, so it was cool to see her put her take on it. I think a lot of them are just kind of unoriginal at this point.

AF: Speaking of that as an issue and just to get a sense of your own opinions here, I mean, you're getting a lot of hate, you're getting a opinions, you're getting a lot of criticisms. But, as an artist and as a songwriter, what are some song ideas or cliches - you don't have the name names or anything, I know you're not here to hate on anybody – but, what are some cliches in songwriting and modern music that when you hear them, you're like, ugh. Are there certain cliches or overdone ideas or certain sounds or something that put you off entirely when you run across them?

BA: I think the main thing that will put me off is if an artist was making one thing and was talking about one subject and had one type of songwriting or instrumentation and genre. I know genres are kind of morphine and dead, but, like, if someone was making pop punk music three years ago and now they're making folk music, that turns me off just because it feels like following a trend. Now, I know what you're thinking...

AF: People are gonna dig into your past. They're gonna find your pop punk band. Okay? So watch. Watch out, buddy.

BA: I've been making the same stuff and whining about the same shit. So there's nothing they're gonna find there. But I know what you're thinking, which is that Taylor Swift has changed genres multiple times, but I don't feel like she's ever been following an industry trend. Whereas I feel like every guy is making stomp clap folk music right now.

AF: So you're saying I'm an OG Stomp clap folkster. Get off my corner.

BA: I guess, in a sense, but I don't have stomp clap.

AF: I actually agree. I feel like the Kyle Gordon comparisons are not accurate. I'll say that I think Kyle is funny, and I love Kyle, but I feel like when I heard what you were doing, I was like, 'This is giving me, like, some Zach Bryan vibes. But then also when I heard or I saw on your social media that you're such a big Taylor fan, then it all sort of connected for me, and I was like, 'Oh, right, I'm hearing it. And I feel like people will especially pick that up if they listen to your recordings. Speaking of which, I also wanted to say. And, you know, we talked about your vibrato earlier, but you're not as aggressive with the vibrato on the records. The records, compared to your live shows, are pretty easygoing and mellow. You know, in terms of, like, the instrumentation and even your vocal approach. To what do you attribute that? Like, why are you taking such a noticeably softer approach? I would say, to an extent. Maybe some people will hear you recording. Maybe if they're turned off by the vibrato in the live video, they'll be like, 'Oh, okay, I actually like this.' Or they'll be like, 'Is this is the same guy?' They may not even recognize it in a way. So, to what do you attribute this different, softer approach when in the studio, when you're singing?

BA: I've always been inspired by artists who display their humanity in the live show.

AF: Okay. So you have the people there in front of you. You're taking it as an opportunity to whip up some emotions and try to pull something out of this crowd in front of me.

BA: Yeah. And sometimes it's not intentional. Like the people saying he can't control his vibrato. I mean, sometimes you're right. Like, I'm just getting emotional and passionate, and it comes out. But then other times, I'm making the conscious decision of there. I'm not performing for the Internet, I'm performing for the people who bought tickets and are at the concert. And so nothing in my mind is like, 'Oh, this is going to be a great piece of content.' My whole thought is, this is going to be great for Anthony, who's standing in front of me right now. And vibrato, if you're in the room, pretty freaking sick. People like it. People love the vibrato.

AF: You're saying it's more of an IRL experience.

BA: I mean, sure. I think it's cool in the video, I don't have a problem with it. I will say, funny, funny story. One time I was playing one of those camps, and I had played, like, three nights, and this kid came up to me, and he was like, 'Hey, man, I just want to compliment you. I really look up to you for your bravery. I can tell how nervous you are on stage because of your voice shaking. And I also get nervous a lot of times, and so I'm learning a lot from you, and I want to appreciate you.' And I was just like, 'Thanks, man.' Like, I appreciate that. And then internally, I'm like, it's vibrato. I'm not nervous.

AF: Yeah. He's like, you're singing this way out of fear.

BA: Yeah, out of fear. But, yeah, I mean, I think recordings I've always had trouble with, actually, my goal is to channel what people feel when they hear me live into the recording. And what I do live doesn't translate directly to recorded music and I guess to the Internet. And so trying to figure out the balance of how do you create the emotional feeling that people have at my show in a recorded medium is.

AF: Brendan Abernathy live album.

BA: We have one.

AF: Okay, well, there you go.

BA: And I'm doing more.

AF: Well, you got to do more at this point.

BA: He's Better Live Vol 1. Oh, God, I've heard that 5,000 times. And, yeah, it's easy, it's corny. I don't care. But I do think a big thing I'm lamenting about this whole situation in full honesty is, and I've vented about this to people close to me a lot, and I know this is going to be on the Internet, but I'm a vulnerable person... I think it's the hardest thing about the situation to me is that somehow my art got on an algorithm that hated it and not an algorithm that would have loved it. Because, like, you're saying, the Zach Bryan fans, the Noah Khan fans, the Taylor Swift fans, genuinely, like, y'all would love my music and love my live show and somehow it got on, I don't know, the Drake algorithm. I don't really know what it's on.

AF: Yeah. You're definitely not on an algorithm of people who vibe with that genre of music generally. I think if you were instead being blasted into the algorithms of the fans of those artists, the comment section wouldn't be the same. Let's get into that a little bit. Do you feel like this is sort of a function of just how these social media platforms are purposefully working? Do you feel like this is the fault of the fans in any way? Because – and I'm sure you've been in this position too – I think when most of us go on the Internet and we see something that we hate or we see something that we have a strong, maybe negative reaction to, we jump in the comments to either express that quickly or even be funny or see what other people in the comments are saying, because we want to laugh along with that. But when we see something we like, we're like, that's pretty good. And then we just go on to the next thing. It doesn't elicit strong enough of a response to say anything. And I feel like a lot of these platforms, unfortunately, I mean, they know how they're working at this point. They're not stupid, but the way that they're geared isn't necessarily how long you've watched or engaged with something, but whether or not you've commented. And I think at this point, we all sort of know as Internet users, the kind of stuff that's the quickest and the fastest to elicit comments from random people without a second thought is either stuff that makes them laugh or stuff that elicits a very negative response that pisses them off. And I feel like that's kind of toxifying things and making it difficult for stuff to blossom up and succeed that maybe is just generally enjoyable. It's making it difficult for honestly decent stuff to get ahead because it's not eliciting super negative responses or laughs out of people, or when you do find stuff, stuff that is genuinely good, it's being filtered into the feeds of people who aren't going to like it because that's going to be the audience for it that reacts to it in a negative way.

BA: Yeah, I mean honestly, Anthony, you know more about this than I do. You are the Internet's busiest music nerd. I'm the road's busiest tour dog. So yeah, I'm more built on understanding how to sell tickets and how to create an experience for my fans that's special when they're in the room and I haven't watched the social dilemma, because I think it would scare me.

AF: Well, look at it this way. This dichotomy exists and you're in the throes of it. You're experiencing it in an intense way right now. How are you as an artist, as somebody who's just barely figuring it all out because it's all happening in the moment, planning on or hoping to sort of like break this cycle moving forward and this wave kind of like washes in because as you just sort of said, after all this is done, I would like to kind of like continue as. Go back to just being a normal singer/songwriter who's passionate about his songs and passionate about connecting with his audience. Do you feel like there is an opportunity from this point to sort of change people's perceptions of you, or just move beyond this in some way without people's views of you being entirely characterized by this one viral moment?

BA: Yeah, I mean, you're asking about like my greatest fear right now. Obviously it's incredible. The Internet's so uncontrollable, and I'm just a white guy with a guitar. And I'm definitely terrified of for the rest of my life being the guy who stood on his tiptoes at a concert. Yeah, I mean, for sure, that's a really scary thought when you weren't even asking for it. You did a moment for people in the room and then you posted it and it just went crazy on an algorithm that hated it. And it just as easily could have gone crazy on an algorithm that loved it, and it didn't. And so now you're terrified of it for the rest of your life like that. Being attached to you. I think what keeps me sane is two things. Well, three things. One of them is that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the song is good. It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but for me it's good, I like it. And that means there's going to be some people that like it. Even if it's 10% of the US population that likes it, that's 30 million people. That's to me like the way out is how do I channel everyone who knows the words to my song, which is a lot of people. How do I get them to actually listen to the recorded version? And then once they listen to the recorded version, I've got a back catalog of 40 something songs. I've got a 15-song album coming out in a couple of months. I'm not like a viral artist who went viral with one moment and had one song, and now I need a record label to get me in a studio with a bunch of writers. I've got 15 songs done and ready to put out. I've got another 15 songs written that I'm ready to record. Like, I'm an artist, I'm a songwriter, and I'm ready to run. And I'm excited that this is reaching more people, and I'm hopeful and confident that if people actually listen to my music, they will like it. Or they won't, and that's fine. But I know there's an audience for my music because I've met them, and I know that it's bigger than the ones I've met. The fear is that people won't get past the initial perception they have, and that's definitely a fear I have. So that's one thing I'm confident in, is the music. The other thing that's keeping me sane is a lot of people in the industry telling me that this is gonna pass. I don't think they knew how big it was gonna get, but still they're confident it's gonna pass. And the third thing is, frankly, I have faith that God is doing something that I cannot understand and that it's going to be redeemed, to be honest. So I'm not trying to get religious on the podcast or anything. Those are the three things.

AF: You said as the song was originally going viral and people were reacting to the clip negatively. You were observing this bit of a disconnect between the clips that were going viral. Are people actually going out and listening to the song now that it exists, now that the song is out? Because obviously there's been a window of time between when the clip went viral and the song actually got fully released. Have you been able to drive some people in the direction of the track? Have you been able to make that sort of connection? Has it been difficult sort of like transferring that? Because I know it's something that a lot of artists and content creators have a hard time with. You know, you get that kind of viral moment on a platform like Reels or like TikTok, but then getting those same people to go over and check out anything else that you're doing or get some kind of deeper experience or context for who you are and what you do can be pretty hard.

BA: It's been really...Yeah, it's been really hard. I'm not getting choked up. I just had some mucus in my throat.

AF: I know that if you get nervous or if you get emotional, that your vibrato will come out, so I'll be looking for that. That's gonna be the tell.

BA: Yeah, I mean, that's been a really big source of frustration for me, for sure. It's just like. I mean, in my mind, y'all, if the song stuck in your head, it's not because it's poorly written. Like, there's something about it that's catchy.

AF: And if it's stuck in your head, I mean, go out and listen to it.

BA: Exactly. I'm like, why are you not looking for the song? And to be fair, the song streamed better than any song I've ever released. And it took me six years to gain to go from 3,000 to 13,000 followers on Instagram, and it took me six days to go from 13,000 to 23,000. And it took me five, four years with TikTok to go from zero to 3,000 followers. And then we started a new one that this one was posted on, and it took me six days to go from 450 followers to whatever I'm at, 20 something thousand. So it's definitely growing the reach of the project, which I'm thankful for, and people are coming and checking it out. But that's been something I keep asking people is like, like, yo, if this moment's so viral, why do I not have 100,000 followers? Yo, if this moment's so viral, why is this song not at a million streams already? Like, what's going on?

AF: Right?

BA: And I don't understand it. Like, I don't understand the Internet at all. I don't understand streaming at all. And so this is all very overwhelming. I mean, I slept. I was up till 2:30 and up at 6. Like, the whole week this was happening. And I didn't sit down for a meal for, I think, eight days. So I've definitely been working overtime to try to get people to listen to it just because I mean, look at that guy. Number one hater. That dude is, like, spending 10 minutes to send a DM telling me how much I suck, and then he listens.

AF: That's less time than listening to the song one time would in total.

BA: And then he takes three minutes, listen to the song, and he's like, 'Oh, it's actually pretty good. And so I'm trying to get people to listen to it. Yeah, it's been frustrating. I think the thing that's most frustrating, though, is, and I don't know if you feel this on the subscribers and views front, I'd actually love to hear you talk about it. As someone who's been in the Internet game for a while, and I think about artists, too. It's like, okay, my goal is to play Red Rocks. So once I sell out Red Rocks, am I just gonna stop working to grow?

AF: Yeah, you'll just quit. You'll just be done, right?

BA: I won't. And so a week ago, like, two weeks ago, if I got 10,000 views on a TikTok, I'd be like, 'I've made it.' And now if I get 10,000 views on TikTok, I'm like, 'Oh, my God, my algorithm's slipping. I'm gonna lose my voice in this whole thing, and I'm just gonna be drowned out.' And so I think I'm working to get it heard. But also, if you told me a month ago, 'Hey, your song is going to get 100,000 streams in three days,' I'd be like, 'Oh, my gosh, this is amazing.' So it's just that rat race of wanting more and more and more and more that the album's about. But is that relatable on the YouTube front too? Like, is it ever enough?

AF: Oh, I think for some people. I mean, look, I am arguably successful on YouTube, obviously, and have been doing it for a very long time, but I don't, I think, have the psychosis in me personally that I know some other creators have who are always looking for that next sort of like viiral hit, a moment of drama, or something like that, and then every single thing that they do is oriented around that drama or around that interaction. I think just by virtue of continuing to do what I do naturally and be upfront and be open about my actual opinions on things, I am able to sort of create some of those tentpole or peak moments just naturally by virtue of the fact that I'm talking about a very popular thing that a lot of people are into, and I'm talking about it around the time that it is relevant to talk about it, because an album just came out, and maybe the opinion that I have of that thing is like not agreeable to everybody. And it sort of like creates almost like one of those, again, drama type moments. But if you go into my back catalog on YouTube, the vast majority of all the videos that I put out are about smaller albums and artists and they get far fewer views than some random video where I'm on a Drake lyric or something, you know. But again, if I was like just spending every waking moment thinking about 'Okay, man, how am I going to get the next video to get like 600,000 views or more views than the last video about Drake?' I would be worried about making every single video that I'm doing about Drake, you know, I mean, or just any popular major artist. And I, I think unfortunately I have seen some creators, like, I've seen their careers sort of like go down the toilet, like chasing after one viral moment after the next and trying to orchestrate another beef or something conflict in order to kind of like keep people interested and, you know, sort of locked in. And you know, I just feel like that's, that's kind of like a short term plan, you know, like I'm here to just sort of like be consistent and as long term as possible and just on top of what I do in kind of like a quality way so that people don't like lose faith in it. Because I feel like what's more important than all of that is the trust I've been able to instill in my viewers that whether or not they agree with what I say or not, they know that I'm being like on the level with how I actually feel. And if that were to go away or be broken or be sullied, I feel like I would have nothing. You know, I don't think there's any value or meaning to what I do. If people don't trust that I'm being on the level with them about what I'm saying and why I'm saying it.

BA: Yeah, that's super valuable insight.

AF: So, yeah, I mean, it can be the chase for the next kind of like viral hit or whatever. It can certainly be all-consuming and it doesn't have to all be bad. I think it's a part of the job on some level. You know, I feel like every week I'm trying to sort of think of one thing consciously. Like, okay, here's the biggest thing happening this week. Musically, I have to engage with it, and I have to do something about it. But then I have to sort of fill in the gaps with the rest of the week, or else I'm just kind of making a video about one thing, and then I'm kind of making my life obsess and revolve around only things that are viral or trendy or whatever. And while I think popular music is important and it's relevant, and I feel like it gives all music fans as close as we can possibly get to some kind of monoculture. I feel like I grew up as a kid in the 80s and the 90s, sort of having a very firm sense of the monoculture. You know, it was Simpsons, it was Seinfeld. You know, you had all these cultural touchstones that everybody was into and had a cultural appreciation of, and you could talk to just about anybody about, you know. These days, some of the biggest and most popular things and artists in so many ways just feel so niche. Even something as popular and as huge as Taylor Swift, you have people who are just the biggest Taylor Swift fans who are obsessed with all the Easter eggs and know all the things and know all the lore and are fighting it out in the comments, and you have people who are like, this is big, I don't even know what the hell this is. The Morgan Wallen album was just the number one album in the country, and there are countless people who just haven't heard a lick of a single song or a single song second on that record. Whereas like before previously, when a song or an album was the number one song in the country, you couldn't get away from it. It was all over the place. You couldn't escape it So the way we consume things and decide whether things are number one, it's so much less based on a greater understanding across a broad swath of people and more based on what's the most hyper niche, sort of like psychotically group of people that we can sort of get into a particular thing and just get them obsessed with it in such a way to where they're consuming it over and over and over and over and over, and they're in a bubble around it. It just feels like everybody's in their own weird bubble. And I'm trying my best not to be, to the extent that I possibly can, I can't know everything, but if I wanted to, I could just make my entire world every single viral dumb artist that I could talk about at any given time. But, you know, I have to actually talk about stuff that interests me as well and cover stuff that I feel like maybe isn't as algorithmically popular. Or the word that I want to use is maybe beneficial monetarily anyway. Because I feel like I came at this for just a love of talking about music and engaging with music and celebrating music in the first place. I feel like, you know, curating is a part of that. And curating means digging for things that maybe other people aren't fully aware of yet. So, you know, to me, that's an important part of the process. If you're just talking about stuff everybody knows about and giving lukewarm takes that everybody already agrees with, what the fuck are you doing?

BA: Yeah, it's very admirable. Genuinely.

AF: I don't know. It's. It. I'm not. I'm not doing it to get any commandment from anybody. It's just what I'm interested in.

BA: No, I know. I think. I think that's what I'm admiring is the independence of it. And one of my favorite quotes. I'm bad at memorizing things. So one of my favorite paraphrases is it's not how much we leave with others, but how much we help them become themselves. Oh, my God. I'm butchering this quote. But basically, what I really admire, I read it before every show, so I don't know how I'm not reciting it. But it's basically just the idea that the world is a better place when people bring their genuine and authentic selves and aren't trying to pander to anything. And I think the algorithm that runs our world right now definitely rewards pandering, rewards hot takes, rewards triggering things. And I think there's a lot of. You are to be admired, whether you seek it or not, for digging for something that maybe no one cares about. I think you are to be admired for interviewing someone who is getting flamed in the comments.

AF: Speaking of independence, because you mentioned that, I wanted to talk about your own at this point before you head Out. I know that you're working with a booking agency and working with a bit of a team, which I, even at your level I feel like is understandable because there's still so much to do and manage as an artist when you're performing as much as you are and everything going on in the world of social media. But going forward from here, what do you feel like you're willing to do in terms of like ingraining yourself deeper into your work and your art and hopefully your career and this industry? Do the label offers that you mentioned earlier, is anything about any of that, regardless of what money is being offered, enticing to you, or does remaining independent in the fashion that you are currently, is that more valuable? Where do you feel like the road forward is from here in terms of being able to continue doing what you do?

BA: Yeah, well, the main thing I'm really hoping to get out of this is management because I'm self-managed and that's a lot to deal with. And I feel like management companies in a sense are almost like modern labels. Like they have PR, they have publishing, they have marketing arms, they have promotion arms, they have so many things and they have such large networks. And so the main thing I'm hoping for is to work with a manager who I can trust. I also want to clarify, this song is released through an independent record label. So I was independent for five and a half years, and I just got really tired of my music feeling like it wasn't reaching as many people as I wanted it to. And, and honestly, this is funny, I felt like it was being met with apathy. And that was actually what was killing me is I was like, I just want people to have an opinion about it.

AF: You got opinions?

BA: Got it. And so I made the decision to sign with a really small label. I mean, it's basically like four people and their main thing is like the digital space and social media. And so I'm really thankful I signed because I really wouldn't have known how to deal with any of this. I probably wouldn't have known to keep posting because I'm not chronically online. And so they were like, 'Dude, you gotta post, you gotta keep posting.' And I was like, 'Oh, like why? It's already reaching so many people, why do we need to post again?' And they're like, 'Because that's how the algorithm works, I didn't even know that. So I'm super green on the Internet front, so I'm really thankful I signed with a company that is experienced in that. They say they're experienced in that. I have no idea. I do, I do. I was really intentional about the deal that I signed, and I was willing to give up some things, but I also was intentional to maintain a lot of stuff like I can still sell vinyl and keep everything I am out. I just have a lot of flexibility at the end of the period, which I cared about. I basically wanted to remain as independent as possible while also working with a team that I believed in and that I trusted because these guys have been trying to rep me for almost a full year and I signed back in January, so this was not like a fresh thing.

AF: Is there going to be a time when you have to re record all your masters and sort of go on an Eras tour to buy them back? Is that what's going to happen in the future? I don't know.

BA: I did give up master ownership which was a sad thing. But I cared more about getting the music heard than I cared more about the art than my financial future. And because it's such a short-term deal, it's just a one-album thing. It's like okay, what the end of that option at the end of this period, hopefully I can still hopefully just this grows me and then I can keep my masters, do a licensing thing. Like I don't know, I just try.

AF: You can reset and then go from there and decide whether or not moving forward it works.

BA: Yeah, I don't think I'm going to re record my songs though. I'm always very inspired by what I'm writing in that moment. I usually actually hate my music from like four or five, five years ago and so I can't imagine myself doing that. But never say never. I mean I respect that she did it. I think it's pretty badass, but I don't see myself doing that. I hope that's even a discussion topic. I hope people are trying to buy my masters. That would be best case scenario.

AF: So Brendan Abernathy. 🫡

BA: Yeah. The salute's so dumb. I'm sorry to the world.

AF: No, this is a tribute, this is a genuine tribute.

BA: No, I've been saluting to everyone. I'm like 🫡.

AF: Thank you for taking the time good rest of your day and thank you very much for being an open book and having a good conversation.

BA: Stay busy.

AF: I will. You too, man.

BA: Thanks.